How to Create an Uncopyable Buying Experience with Bruce Scheer and Kay Miller

Bruce Scheer: Welcome to the ValuePro Show, where value pros get value ready. My name is Bruce Scheer, the host of the ValuePro Show. In this episode, we're talking with Kay Miller, a sales expert, speaker, and coauthor of a book I just love called Uncopyable You. Kay is known for helping professionals build personal brands that stand out and more importantly, create memorable and high value buying experiences that keep customers coming back. Kay will share how you can build trust, engage buyers in a way that feels natural, not salesy, and create an uncopyable buying experience that turns prospects into lifelong customers. Let's get into it. Okay. Thanks so much for joining the ValuePro Show. I'm so happy to have you here. And I must admit, I I bought your book a few months ago, read it, loved it. And then over this last weekend, I was just reading it pretty much the whole weekend just getting ready for this interview. I didn't wanna blow it because I've got the uncopyable k here with me and just wanted to make sure this thing rocks. So, anyways, because of that, I literally started redoing my whole personal brand statement. What what a wonderful thing. So for everybody tuning in, Kay Miller and her husband, Steve Miller, wrote this book called uncopyable you. I absolutely love it. Just the title of it. Uncopyable. What a big idea. How do you stand apart from the pack, but in a way that's uncopyable? You know, again, lovely, lovely theme, and and the book's just a dream. Really well written. Not their first rodeo. Speaking of rodeos, you can see me on Vashon Island this morning wearing a cowboy hat. I was out moose hunting a little bit, and that's one of the metaphors that they use in their book, which I absolutely love, hunting that moose and building your personal brand and and probably even more importantly, your personal brand strategy, how you're gonna take action around that and really landing with with your moose. You know, I'd, you know, I e your ideal customer profile. So I I really love that. K. Before we jump in and get your point of view, I wanted to highlight for the audience 3 key statistics that just kind of blow me away. If anybody's seen the movie Apollo 13, Houston, we do have a problem. And, the first stat is 75%. 75% of b to b buyers, according to Gartner, a big survey they did, prefer to have a sales free experience. Wow. That sales free. That that's no good. That means not a good buying experience. 88% of those, buyers this is in a Salesforce dotcomstateofsalessurvey, an annual survey with thousands of buyers. 88% of b to b buyers will only buy from someone they deem to be a trusted adviser, meaning they gain trust and they bring advice as part of that buying experience. Really, really important. And and very few kinda are at that bar. Again, that nasty 75 percent is kinda hard to run from that. And then the 3rd stat is and this one was, done, with a study by SBI, another super credible source. But what they determined, through their survey was 59% of the buying influence on the buying decision comes from the buying experience, not from the offering itself. So buying experience is key. That's the leading indicator, you know, to, you know, your win rate, your deal cycles, everything going well, getting bonus checks, commissions, etcetera. The the whole party really begins with creating this amazing buying experience. And right now, it's broken. So, my firm, we've invested a lot of time, energy, and money in figuring out, hey. What do we do to right size this buying experience? We created the first of its kind, a b to b buying experience index. And in that, we're looking across the buying journey. What are the causal factors that you need to influence to drive an enhanced buying experience? You know, 1, to use case phrase, uncopyable buying experience. How do you do that? How do you create a high value buying experience? And, Kay, thanks for your patience, but, I wanna turn the floor to you. You know, what do we do here? 1st, why do you wanna create an uncopyable buying experience, and then how do we do it? So so over to you, Kay. Sorry to be this one way train. Let's shine the spotlight on you.

Kay Miller: That's right. I love the spotlight, actually. And, Bruce, first of all, I wanna say thank you for having me on the podcast. I have to say it's been really fun to get to know you. It turns out that we have some things in common. We live in the Seattle area, and both of us got snow this morning, which is pretty unusual, so that's kinda cool. I know a lot of people that you know because my husband, Steve, has been involved in NSA, National Speakers Association. Shep Hyken, a friend of ours, you're also, inviting to speak. So I'm gonna say thank you for inviting me. I'm gonna give your book a little plug too, which I have.

Bruce Scheer: If you can

Kay Miller: see this, inspire your buyers. And one thing I like about this book before I jump into the uncopyable philosophy is that people don't like to be sold. In fact, in my sales book, I have a sales book, I tell a story of my niece. And when she was about 3, my mom would take care of her every every Wednesday, I think it was. Every Wednesday, she was, you know, just helping my sister-in-law out. And one time she told Shauna, my niece Shauna, you need to pick up your toys because we're gonna go to the store. And Shauna crossed her arms and said, I don't like to be told. And I love that because we don't like to be sold. So the fact that you frame your book around the buyer, getting them to buy, not feeling like they've been sold, that is so critical. I did take a few notes while you were speaking. You were dominating the conversation.

Bruce Scheer: Of course.

Kay Miller: Just kidding. Just kidding. But, you have in your book a go to market narrative. And one thing that I like you that you said is deceptively simple. And that's the thing about sales. I think we make it way too complicated. This is a human to human interaction, and, really, it's pretty shocking about the statistic about how many buyers don't even wanna deal with a salesperson. That

Bruce Scheer: One one thing you didn't include there, Kay, on that one. Deceptively simple, but in that book, I do highlight after that one more phrase, but mastered by few. I rarely see that happen in the wilds. But but, anyways, I'll I'll leave this on that cliffhanger back over to you.

Kay Miller: No. That's okay. Because, you know, I just pulled that little excerpt. And yes, you have an entire framework in the book and that's, you know, maybe it doesn't seem quite so simple, but at its core, it, you know, it's a human to human interaction. So when buyers say, I don't wanna deal with a salesperson, well, where are they getting their information? As Bruce, as you know, I'm suffering from some vertigo, which is making it difficult to do everything from skiing to walking around my house. So what did I do? I go online. I asked AI, and I was pretty convinced that I had a brain tumor. Because we can all get information online, but is it accurate? Does it apply to us? You know, is it just making us scared? So what you can get online is so incomplete that a buyer is really doing themselves a disservice by not dealing with a salesperson.

Bruce Scheer: I'll tell you. True. Yep. Hey. Just a quick one on that. I was doing, some work building a story that sizzles, like, what's in that book for eBay enterprise. And they, k, they had a whole huge automotive division selling cars online. And I asked them because I wanna you know, normally, when I start a project, I wanna talk with who's doing things right. I mean, how how can we learn from that and repeat that and have more consistent results? So they said, Bruce, you know, our number one seller of of automobiles on eBay is out in Lex or out in Atlanta. They're called Lexus of Atlanta. I go, oh, man. I wanna talk to those guys. You know? And they're like, oh, yeah. We'll set it up. So I talked to the principals of that. 3 of those guys, you know, I just called in. They were in their office. I'm not going, guys, I need to understand, you know, what's the magic here? What are you guys doing? And, one thing I did ask them was, you know, of the people that show up after purchasing their car, how many people drive away with the same car that they purchased online? And, Kay, these guys buy the car on eBay. They book a flight. They fly all the way to Atlanta. Lexus of Atlanta happens to be right on the train line from the airport. There's a train. So they take the train to there to pick up the keys to their car so they can drive it home. That's it. They've already bought the car. Contract signed, blah blah blah. It's already done. How many people do you think drive away from with the car that they purchased?

Kay Miller: That exact model? I'm guessing not all of them for sure. That'll be my first guess. Not all of them. I don't know what the percentage is, but I also have a related story. And I would say in the example, that comes to mind, maybe 50% k.

Bruce Scheer: Great gas. Great gas. Yeah. The statistic they gave me was 80%. So roughly 4 out of 5 people drive away with what they paid for. Contracts already signed. They just need the key. It's done, and it's ready for them to go. But, one out of 5, when the sellers talk to them, they flip them. And and why is that? You know? You know, they'll always go, hey. Wow. That's a sweet looking sports car that you bought. Congratulations. Tell me a little bit more about your your world. And they're like, oh, well, I got the kids and everything. I wanted this for fun. Oh, but what about those soccer matches you need to take kids with and and their friends? Hey. Guess what? You know, there's actually a minivan that we have here, but it's got the sports package. So you could still look cool and take your kids to the soccer game. What do you think? Damn. I think my wife would be happy with that. Boom. They're driving away with a sports package with a minivan versus the sports car that came to to to drive away. But, you know, that that that's the magic I have in a beautiful seller. They can see things that you don't see, highlight the obvious or the unobvious, and and and help get that right fit. You know, there's a role in place for sellers. I'll I'll promise you that. But, sadly, you know, 75% of buyers don't wanna be dealing with them.

Kay Miller: Right. And it's because they've had bad experiences, and we've all had bad experiences. Interesting that you bring up automobiles, cars because the phrase used car sales man. They usually, they say used car salesman, but now it's really used car salesperson.

Bruce Scheer: Person.

Kay Miller: Yeah. And and so since we're talking vehicles, I tell a story in the book about a woman named Katie O'Neil. Now she brands herself as Katie r v O'Neil. She has claimed that. You remember that?

Bruce Scheer: Yep. I do remember that story.

Kay Miller: Right. So if you search for Katie r v O'Neil, she will come up. There are so many things that she does right that I can't get into all of it, but I'm going to address what you said, and that is that people don't know what they want. They think they know what they want, but they're not the expert. And she was I was just listening to my podcast interview with her. I don't unfortunately remember the episode, but look her up on the podcast. That is a master course in sales. So she, first of all, talks about her moose. Now her, moose as we say in the framework, and I have if you're looking, I have a big picture of a moose. That's what we call your And I

Bruce Scheer: want moose hunting, just FYI. Yep.

Kay Miller: In the snow. In the snow. So the moose, or avatar ideal target really determines who you're wanting to impress so that they will want to buy. Well, one thing that was very interesting is that she said her first job is to sell the husband. So this is kinda sexist, but, you know, a lot of purchases, home purchases, a lot of decisions to buy are made by the women in a couple's situation. I don't know about you, Bruce. Does your wife make the decisions a lot of time?

Bruce Scheer: Oh, sadly. Yeah. Or, I mean, sadly, it's probably me. But, yeah, I I don't know. We we do a good job of sharing decisions. Yeah.

Kay Miller: Yes. So so her job, a lot of times, she does videos, and she's got hundreds of videos online. She walks through these RVs. Now I should clarify that these are RVs that go from half a $1,000,000 to maybe $1,520,000. So these aren't your, you know, the RV that you see on the road that you can rent that say, we're having fun. Call this number so you can rent this RV. Yeah. No. These are luxury automobiles. So a lot of times, she said, the men will watch these videos and really study them. But then the true moose, the one that she has to to, convince, persuade is often the woman. So they come into the dealership, for example, and like you said, they've watched videos online. They think that they want this type of RV. But Katie does a great job as you alluded to, you know, about asking not just what you like and not telling about the fuel capacity or, you know, how the sewage works, none of that. She talks about the RV from the inside out, and all her questions are just what you said. What's your lifestyle? Who's gonna be in this RV? Do you like to play board games, or do you like to go, hunt venison? And you want a place to store your half of venison or or whatever. Do you want to know where your curling iron is? You know, what kind of music do you like? Just everything. What how are you using this RV? So she asks questions, a lot of questions that they haven't thought of. And oftentimes, to your point, they say they want this RV. And when she really talks to them, she said, I never take them out to the lot till I have this very in-depth conversation. And then they go out to the lot, and she shows them the models that they are interested in. And one thing she does is she watches their reaction. You know? What do you what do you think when you see these dark cabinets or or, you know, whatever the layout. So

Bruce Scheer: Yeah.

Kay Miller: She is she calls it exposure sales. So she watches and studies their reactions Mhmm. Because, again, the buyer doesn't have the information. They are not the expert. They need a guide.

Bruce Scheer: I love it. I absolutely love it. You know, back to our buying experience index. Oh my gosh. You know, she's really hitting on a number of these things, but gaining trust by being a great listener and and discussing what they what they desire, etcetera. I love that exposure, Telling, that you talked about. That really gets into for really clarifying requirements. And, again, she just sounds like a fabulous listener, both eyes and ears, if you would, in terms of what what's lighting somebody up and what's gonna bring them joy in their life. Yeah. Great, great story. Perfect.

Kay Miller: It it is great. And and, again, I encourage you listening to get that book because Yeah. That is just the tip of the iceberg. She, before she owns RVs, and that's one thing that she recommends. She recommends that if you're gonna sell RVs, you should have an RV. So she's very, very knowledgeable. She knows her stuff. And when she dealt with someone, she found videos online. She called him. He never called back. And trust to me is being brilliant at the basics. And I'm sure you've experienced this, Bruce. You call someone back and they say, hey. Thanks for calling me back. And you're like, are you kidding? Is that how low the bar is? Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Establishing trust?

Bruce Scheer: I'm trying to buy from a seller right now, and, yeah, it's weeks apart when we talk. It's most bizarre thing in in my life. I'm talking to his his CEO more than him at at this point in time. Yeah. But, yeah, the bar's low. And, yeah, and and there's some serious reasons, you know, like we talked about to be uncopyable, you know, in relation to improving that buying experience. So I love this this vein that we got ourselves into. Kay, this this is absolutely perfect. So I think we've probably hit on, you know, some of the why. You know, it's your opportunity to stand apart and offering an an awesome buying experience. If you do that, you're gonna sell more and sell more often, you know, obviously, and probably have more joy and better relationships with the buyers who buy from you. If we could, Kay, let's turn the corner a little bit and just get into some of the how, how to think about this. If you wanna, you know, create this uncopyable buying experience, you know, what what advice would you give to our audience?

Kay Miller: Well, one of the things that we like to say, my husband Steve and I, and Steve cowrote this book with me, is that oftentimes, almost all the time, a product or service can be copied. Unless it's patented or unless it's, you know, so brilliant that no one can replicate it. Most of what we're selling is copyable. So first of all, I really recommend that you clarify what your personal branding promise is. Now Yeah. Katie, I'm gonna bring her back into the picture because she tells people her personal branding statement. I do that as well. Her branding statement is I want everyone who walks through through these doors. I want everyone who walks through these doors to be better for the experience. So when you tell someone, I promise you that this is what I want to do for you. I will not sell you the wrong product. I don't want you to be unhappy. So one of the branding, strategies is to define and and the book takes you through that whole process of thinking about what's important to you, what are your values, what who are your moose, who are the buyers, And how can you focus on them? Again, with a $1,000,000 RV, you know, we do we often say we don't wanna start with the price. We don't wanna lead with price, but you also have to use that price to disqualify, qualify. You know, are you prepared for a $5,000 a month payment? Things like that. So being honest and transparent, is huge in building building trust.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. For her, I'd say the word integrity as well, you know, based on what you said, just that high integrity part of her personal brand.

Kay Miller: So yes. So you listening define your personal brand. How do you communicate that to the customer? You talk a lot about story. I believe in story because people learn through stories, you know, everything from the bible to, you know, any presentation that you go to, 3 days later, what do you remember? I'll guarantee you remember the stories better than the points. So so tell stories and I encourage you listening, look at your history. What stories do you have? I have a very famous story that goes back many years ago. I was one of the only women working for Walker exhaust. I was selling a very glamorous product line, automotive mufflers and catalytic converters. So I'm obviously being sarcastic. But back in that, period of time, here I am selling a product I don't know anything about. So I was selling to distributors, I asked the distributor who's a really great customer of yours, maybe a muffler shop, that I can contact and go in and ask to spend the day learning from their perspective what it's like to deal with our product. That has been gold through my career. I still use that story. I have the nickname muffler mama, which hopefully was an affectionate nickname. That set me apart. No other sales rep, male or female, and there were only just a few women, no one had ever done that. So what does that story represent? Obviously, I'm committed to learning about the product from the customer's perspective, and then I tell them, okay. With what I've learned, I wanna share my knowledge with you and and, you know, mesh the 2 together so that we can come up with something that will help you. So those are are 2 of the specific branding promises. Now you might not have a story. Well, go make one.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah.

Kay Miller: I've worked with sales people and I say have you ever been to the factory? Have you gone out in the factory floor? Well, no. I haven't really done that. Hey. Create a story. Use a success story with a customer like like we talked about. If you can come up with dollars and cents. Okay. This machine saved them on labor, on materials, on time. Here's a little chart explaining what that is. So And I'd also

Bruce Scheer: mention, Kay, another another thing to add is, I had the CRO from Tableau, former CRO, excuse me, on on the show just, oh, a little over a month ago. And, there's an episode on that. And then she became president of Gong dot io, valued about $7,000,000,000 now. But we were talking about the importance of that personal story as well. And I know you've you know, your book around uncapable you and personal branding, you know, I'd encourage, you know, I'm sure Katie's got a really incredible personal story. I think yeah. Yeah. In your book, you do highlight that, how she was shopping for automobiles when one day, etcetera. But, we were talking about just encouraging the development of your personal story, which should have the why that relates back to the buying experience that you're trying to create, you know, where where your buyer would see the relevance in that personal story.

Kay Miller: Right. Yeah. That's a good point that the story isn't just, you know, oh, I did this and that and this is what happened. The story has to tie into what you want to do for the customer. So it's fine. Figuring out your values, what's important to you. It's having a story whether it's yours or not, and then it's, you know, I we talked a little bit beforehand, the know, like, and trust factor. We've talked about trust because if you don't trust someone, then you're not gonna buy from them, and that to me is pretty simple. It's just following up on what you say you will do. Being transparent. Bad news first is something that I talk with my clients about. There's never an advantage for staying silent because you're afraid. You don't wanna tell them the truth. So I look at personal branding really as a recipe and there are so many components. Those are 3. And I'm gonna say one more thing then I wanna hand it back to you. But we all have a personal brand. And if you think of the brand, I've heard several people say this, so I'm not gonna attribute it to anyone. It's kind of a comment saying, your personal brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. So you can even ask people that know you. How would you describe my personal brand? That's a great way to take an inventory or whatever, get an objective opinion on what you stand for, how people see you.

Bruce Scheer: K. I'm just showing you on the screen right now. Could you highlight even just from a a visual personal branding perspective what you've done? That that's really impressed me. I interview so many different people as part of this show, but you show up, you know, your your personal brand visually is is just stunning. Can you talk about that and how people could think about, you know, just upping their game visually as part of their personal brand?

Kay Miller: I totally can. That's a great question. And, yes, if you're watching this, you notice one thing. Everything is orange. Our products are orange. Our books are orange. I'm wearing orange even though one of my good friends told me that I don't look that great in orange. And I said, too late. I'm all in on orange. It doesn't matter. But our new book, Uncopyable You, is how to create a personal brand that gets people to know you, to like you, to trust you. And this last word is so important. This last word, be memorable. You want

Bruce Scheer: to be Remember.

Kay Miller: Yeah. You. Yes. I've heard so yes. You wanna speak to that?

Bruce Scheer: Oh, no. No. I I no. I just completely agree that, being memorable is just just so absolutely critical. That's why that, you know, that that's the that's the ultimate.

Kay Miller: Right. Because they might know, like, and trust someone else. And to to be known and liked, I just go back to the Dale Carnegie book. If you think you can't be liked, all you have to do is read that book. That's all. And what it is is instead of being interesting, be interested. So you do that. You compliment someone's children. You you, you know, you listen. What else are you interested in? Tell me I wanna understand more about your business. And then what sales people are so bad about shutting their mouths, being quiet, and just listening. So anyway, I I as far as the orange, the orange is an anchor. The orange means that people will remember us. In fact, we've gotten clients because someone has go gone to, I think it was an Astros game that their uniforms are orange. I can't remember, but we got a client who said, you know, I saw that orange and I thought of you. So I have three things about me that if you look them up online, I'm the only person that shows up. So one is the word uncopyable. We've got that. That's our brand. We own it. I think there's some rock group or something that's very small time that has uncopyable.com, so we couldn't get it. But that word uncopyable, if you type that into Amazon, we're the only thing that comes up. I wear orange. I also have the nickname muffler mama. So I challenge you listening. What are three things that people can say about you that they can't say about anyone else? And so that is really the memorable part. And there are other things that you can do to be memorable, but I would start there because you want people to remember you and you wanna separate yourself from all the other choices that they have.

Bruce Scheer: That's perfect. Well, Kay, you did give us just some ideas on on how to get rolling here, and it is kinda coming up with those descriptive words and also thinking about your values that you talked about as well. And that's what I was doing over the weekend, which fostered me to work on my personal branding statement again. And, I I must confess in my opinion and Chat GPTs and Claude's. I think we upped the game a little bit on, on on my personal branding, but thanks to your you and Steve's provocations from the book. As part of next steps, you know, I I'd love to recommend to the audience, definitely grab a copy of your book and and use it, you know, cuddle up with it on a weekend like I did. What else would you say, Kay, that people could think about?

Kay Miller: Well, one thing as far as determining your your personal brand, I like the idea of asking other people how do you see me. Yes. So that is, you know, really when it comes to right down to it. At the end of the day, which is such an overused phrase, I hate to use it, but at the end of the day, you know, you need to be the package that they will choose. And I have so many examples and you mentioned this too that people won't always buy the cheapest product. They'll pay a premium. They won't even maybe buy the very best product. In the book in my first book, Uncopyable Sales Secrets, I quote a distributor sales person, he's a man, but he says to his customers, what is a lower price gonna help do for you? What's a lower price gonna do for you? How will that help you if you run out of product? Or if you have to carry so much inventory that your money is tied up in that. So I think it's really analyzing your customers and again the moves where they're coming from. One of our clients was, selling to a market where several of the people he was working with, they wanted to retire. They wanted to sell the business. So how do you sell them on the value of buying new machinery? Well, what's the business gonna be worth when you sell it? It's gonna be worth more if you have updated equipment and, you know, you have something that's sufficient and will be, you know, irresistible to someone who wants to buy it. So so as far as next steps, I know there's a fairly nebulous and and a lot of things that you, need to think about. But it really that part of it comes down to getting to know the customer and not asking what do you need. You know, you can ask them, what does the win look like to you? And, you know, you can talk about, you know, cost versus value. Okay. Mine will you know, the price is higher, but what will a, you know, an inferior product do for you value wise over the long term?

Bruce Scheer: Absolutely. Yeah. Too true. Too true. And and the great the greatest name of my firm, Kay, is ValuePros. The greatest ValuePros will connect those value dots and and really help see more than just the the, you know, kind of the base price of something. What's the value associated with that? One of our affiliates, he's, former head of global value for SKF selling ball bearings into manufacturing. And those ball bearings, you know, at a at a minimum or 1.5 times the price of the next best alternative ball bearing for those manufacturing use cases. But, believe me, they've gotten really good at showcasing, hey. It's not about price. You know, it's about cost, and what's it really costing you, the lifetime of a machine, and and what's a good ball bearing doing for you, and all the services around that, etcetera. So, yeah, you really got you know, again, that's part of that, you know, driving that wonderful uncopyable buying experience. Okay. Let's, let's wrap up here. I just wanna encourage everybody. Grab a copy of the book. It's just really well written. These guys write well. I promise you that. So, you can grab it on Amazon. You know, it's there, and connect with Kay on LinkedIn as well. Kay does write on LinkedIn and posts, and and you'll wanna be part of a just, her her her stream and making sure you're you're keeping up with her because she's one of the thought leaders in in the industry. So, Kay, thanks so much for being on the show. Anything else you wanna say before we part?

Kay Miller: Yeah. I have one closing thought, and you're you're asking what can the listeners do right now? One exercise that I really like is to say, go to one of your customers, a customer that that you work well with, that really values, has an acknowledged need for what you're selling, relates to you and understands what your your value is, and say, why do you buy from me? I'd like to know because I'm not the cheapest. I'm not the you know, maybe byproduct is good enough. Why do you buy from me in particular? And that's gonna give you such great ammo to present your solution to other prospects in a way that they're gonna say, yeah. Those are valid points. I wanna look at it like that too.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. I strongly encourage that outside in is what I call it, outside in insight. But, yeah, invaluable. And and, Kay, I did do that as well, went through what people had said about me to to on on the personal brand per your provocation in the book over the weekend. So anyways, Kay, thanks so much for being part of the show for, what a blessing. Thanks so much.

Kay Miller: I really appreciate it, Bruce. Thank you.

Bruce Scheer: That was an incredible conversation with Kay Miller on creating an uncopyable buying experience. One of my biggest takeaways, people don't wanna be sold to, but they do want help buying. And as Kay pointed out, the best sellers aren't just offering products. They're creating experiences that build trust and make buying easy. If you wanna take your personal brand and buying experience to the next level, grab Kay's book, Uncopyable You. And for a hands on approach, check out her free 5 day email series on personal branding at be uncopyable.comforward/5hyphen emails. You can also connect with Kay on LinkedIn at linkedin.comforward/ inforward/millerk, and check out her uncopyable women in business podcast at uncopyablesales.comforward/podcast. Have questions? Reach out to Kay directly at k@beuncopyable.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe to the ValuePro Show. And if you're feeling kind, please leave us a review so others can find and enjoy it too. Thanks for tuning in.