Listen to Elevate the Buying Experience with Bruce Scheer and Andrew McMaster

Bruce Scheer: Welcome to the ValuePro Show, where value pros get value ready. Hi. My name is Bruce Scheer, the host of the ValuePro Show. In this episode, we are talking with Andrew McMaster, a leadership and communication expert with over twenty five years of experience. Andrew is the founder of Jet City Improv here in the Seattle area and has worked with Fortune 500 companies to help teams communicate more effectively, strengthen their leadership, and build trust. He's also the author of Listening Without Agenda, a book that explores how deep, intentional listening can transform relationships and business success. So today, we're diving into how listening, truly listening, can elevate the buying experience. We'll explore why buyers prioritize experience over product, how sales professionals can differentiate themselves by mastering deep listening, and how they can overcome the biggest mistakes that get in the way of effective communication. Let's dive in. Well, Andrew, thank you so much for coming back to the show. Gosh, I think it's been, Andrew, probably three, four years since we did our last episode over at the Columbia Tower. I remember it like it was yesterday. Just absolutely loved it. Our topic is around improv and, hey, things digitally kinda have a long lifespan, and people can still check that out after this show if you'd like. You know, there's another episode of Andrew from a few years back. Yeah. Still as relevant as ever on improv. This topic for today, we're gonna be talking about how do we listen to elevate the buying experience. And so, my firm, valuepros.io, we've done a ton of research and we've come up with 10 key pillars that you can influence to drive a better buying experience. And this one statistic by SBI just really holds true. You know, what what's the customer buying at the end of the day? The offering or the experience? And which one of the two has the greater weight on the purchase decision? Well, if it's a high consideration bold decision, the experience rates at 59 of the influence on that buying decision over the offering itself, which is only 41%. So you gotta get the experience right if you wanna win more deals more often and a little bit faster and, you know, everything spins right when you have a better buying experience and and so many don't. Andrew, there's another statistic that 75% of buyers prefer to have a sales free experience. Wow. Yeah. I'll pause there for a second and let that land

Andrew McMaster: hard. And

Bruce Scheer: I mean, the bar is so dang low, and that's a Gartner statistic, by the way. The bar is so dang low for, value professionals to stand apart and drive a better experience. Now listening is a key element and key driver of being able to do so. And, Andrew, your book couldn't come at a better time. It's just perfect. When I when I saw it, I lit up, like, going, fuck yeah. You know, I I really

Andrew McMaster: didn't do

Bruce Scheer: it because I I know I got issues. You can see me rattling on right now. But, you know, we all need to do a better job of listening, especially as it relates to this better buying experience. Selling's tough. It's even harder this today than it was yesterday, and listening is just such a key factor in this whole thing. So, again, you wrote you wrote a fantastic book, Listening Without an Agenda. Got my copy right here. It's become my best friend. Thank you for popping this over to me, Andrew. Really appreciate it. But, let us know just, why you wrote the book.

Andrew McMaster: Yeah. You know, I it's interesting you were just talking about that, but one of the things when I'm working with sales professionals, I say sometimes the market differentiation that you have is the fact that you actually show up as a real person as opposed to the other salespeople who don't. And so, you know, in a lot of ways, sometimes that market differentiation is you. So anyway Well, especially in this

Bruce Scheer: era of AI, man. Yeah. Even even more so. Yeah. It's gonna be a critical x factor. If if done right, but then also it's gonna be a z factor if done wrong. And, again, 75% of sellers You know? So, yeah, there there's a a low bar. We can do so much better. But, yeah, continue. Tell us that. What drove your passion for writing this thing?

Andrew McMaster: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I was talking with a bunch of people about what I do and really kind of defining the mission and vision of the work that I've been doing on stage and with clients for a while. And someone had just said to me, you know, it sounds to me like you're helping people listen. And that it took me back. I wasn't prepared for that. And then I started to look at it through that lens and went, yeah. I think that's where a lot of pieces are, which then reminded me of things like, my mother before she had passed away, was part of hearing. And so she was having difficulty understanding what people were saying. And I noticed that if I could just sit and get something across to her and then she would talk, but just let go of my need to speak, talk about myself, share anything, and just be available and listen. It changed her perception and she felt included. And so between that and then some of the work I was working with clients too. I mean, and I I had moments with clients where people said, I just suddenly realized I don't listen to anyone. And then and as I used to say that in the book, even, like, people who said, I can't wait to get home and talk to my kids. You know, that realization from people of what is it like to effectively listen, it jazzes me. That just jazzes me. That's that's amazing.

Bruce Scheer: It it really is. Yeah. One of my, my mom, Andrew, she was recognized by president Ronald Reagan at the time of being one of the top administrators in in the whole country. And she was an administrator, principal of a grade school. And, when I talk to people about her, why she was such an amazing leader, just, in her personal life and in her professional life, her her her ability to listen was probably her x factor. She really focused, zeroed in, and let people know that they what they had to say was incredibly important to her, and she was there connecting with them. Just just amazing as a role model, as a great listener.

Andrew McMaster: Yeah. I think good teachers are great. I mean, both of my parents were teachers as well. Good teachers are really those people that you go, oh, wow. They were here for me. They they it felt like they understood you on a deeper level. Yeah. That's amazing. Congratulations to your mom. That's great.

Bruce Scheer: Thank you, Andrew. Well, hey. Jumping in, I know, one of the concepts that you were telling me about is listening without an agenda. Can you open up our dialogue and just explain a little bit about that for us?

Andrew McMaster: Yeah. I mean, just to kind of describe to you the way it sort of works on on brain science a little bit is, on your, your left side of your brain, your prefrontal cortex is where it's aware you're bringing in information. So this is where you're hearing that data, seeing, listening, smelling, tasting, all of that. And then on the left side is where you're categorizing it against what you already know. And so the difficulty is is that I think a lot of us will hear something and then immediately go to the categorization and say, oh, I know something about this, or here's this, or and we anchor it based on what our previous experiences are as opposed to staying in discovery and saying, oh, what else? And and what am I missing? And is there something else there? So in a lot of ways, that sort of listening without agenda is it's how our brain operates. I mean, we are we're operating with kind of, older technology here than what we deal within our world. So how do we use the older technology and understand where its downfalls might be? And I think that's where kind of listening without an agenda rather than what do I wanna get across, what am I trying to say, what is my point. It's, well, what's happening here, and am I really understanding what's happening? That's the difficulty.

Bruce Scheer: How do you turn off that switch where you, go from left to right and start processing like you were saying, you know, where you start to not listen. You're you're more, you know, talking yourself in your head and assimilating. How how do you break that that pattern?

Andrew McMaster: That's a it's a hard one to break. And and I am I'm a firm believer too of I can't tell myself to not do something. Like, the example is if I tell you don't think of a pink elephant, what happens? Right? Yeah. You're thinking of a pink elephant. Right. So we have to give our brain a task, which is, okay, as I'm hearing what you're saying, I am going to be able to put it into five words and feed it back to you, reflective listening, the work of Carl Rogers. So when we start thinking in those terms of giving ourselves a task, something to do, that can help keep us present. Okay. Okay. Cool. Yeah. It's fun.

Bruce Scheer: Thanks for breaking that down. That that's great. And then, let let's get into it maybe a little bit further here. Just, what other common mistakes do you see, biggest mistakes as it relates to listening, and what do we do about that?

Andrew McMaster: I well, I mean, kind of what we just talked about too, those sort of biases or preconceived notions is one of the first things that comes into play. The other thing is, I mean, talking about how the brain is wired. And I I work with a neuroscientist, my friend Andre Golard, and he's quoted throughout the entire book. We we listen and we bring in data points, And then we take those data points and we draw through lines between them. So we are problem solving machines. The biggest thing that I think is one of the biggest mistakes that we have is we tend to always listen for where's the problem and how do I solve it. Especially, I mean, think about it as sales professionals. That's what we're trained to do. You know? Good. We we think in terms of I'm hearing your problem, and then I have a solution, so I'm gonna throw you the solution. As opposed to, is that really the problem? Have I asked more questions about the problem? What's the real problem below? However, our brain immediately dives onto the, oh, I have a solution. Oh, I have a solution. Oh, I have a solution. Yeah. So it's, it's kinda getting there too fast as opposed to staying in discovery. That's one of the biggest mistakes. Absolutely. That so makes sense

Bruce Scheer: to me. Yeah. It is that shallow listening probably gets to those, oh, correlated factors or symptoms of a problem. But if you stay in that listening mode, you can get to level two, level three into a deeper understanding what's some what's some of the causal factors of a of a problem state? And and then, you know, then at that point, perhaps, offering your wisdom and and and path for success with a solution, but but not too early. Is that the point? Or

Andrew McMaster: Yeah. Not too early because, again, as you said, if I'm responding to solutions, then the truth is I'm just playing whack a mole. I'm I'm putting a Band Aid on a symptom, and I'm not actually getting to what that deep need is. I mean, for sales professionals, especially everyone here, if we are not addressing that deep sort of emotional what's in it for me point, then we're not gonna have that person sold. So we really need to keep listening, keep listening, keep listening. What is that root issue? How do we find that? How do I reflect it back? What does that mean? What does it feel like? That's where we have to get into that deep in listening. Absolutely. Yep. Yep.

Bruce Scheer: Yep. For sure. I I love it. Hey. I have a quick question I had on my mind. How do you help your buyer get into a deep listening mode? That's kinda weird. But, is there a way to help somebody else listen a little bit better as well?

Andrew McMaster: You know, it it's a it's gonna be that piece again as I said, because everyone's coming in with a parameter of how they listen and what they're listening for. I think especially for a buyer, it's like, I have this need, so I'm listening for it. And the question that I always have for sales professional is, what is that need that they didn't even know they had? That now you're positioning what your services are for a deeper need that was underneath that need. Yes. I'm speaking to this need, but let's actually go deeper. What else is going on? Example was working with people a little while ago, and, what we got to was that they were so busy, they couldn't get home to actually see any of their children's soccer games. And so then it was that whole idea of once we found that out, it was how do we position this product in order to save you the time so you can get home to spend time with your family. Yeah. And that's that's where we start to get to the real issue that's below it, the need, that, that piece. I don't I don't know how we get buyers to do that, but I think as sales professionals, it's our job to sort of continue to keep that discovery and keep it going. Yeah. One of the best examples of that, I was on a call

Bruce Scheer: and, the chief revenue officer, a new chief revenue officer showed up. And I I was in the selling capacity, and she was the executive. And, it was kind of interesting. I was talking to I was texting with one of my colleagues who was on the call with me, and we both agreed she was just in staccato mode. She was just, you know, throwing things, you know, at at us, you know, thoughts and ideas and staccato, but but not coherent and and, and and I learned through that. She was very stressed out and under fire. And, one another colleague on there was, like, going, hey. Need to halt just for a minute. These two guys that are here are intensely, deeply experienced in this area. Let's listen to them for a little bit and see what they have to say. And so he, you know, as a peer, said, hey. Let let's halt. Now let's listen. So and and that technique, we didn't, she didn't say, hey. Screw you guys. We're dying. She hung in there, and we did work with her, which was nice. But we we it it was a pattern interrupt at that point. So I I think I don't know. In that instance, you know, we were able to help her listen to us, but, yeah, I don't know what the what the right approach is. I it worked in that situation.

Andrew McMaster: There's there's a tool that's in the book that I talk about, which is listening for values. Mhmm. And what I found too is that tends to be one where in that feeling where you're feeling like the the buyer is just not, you know, wow. It's just not it's not getting through. I'm not sure what it is. To start to say, what I'm hearing is is that this is what you really care about. You know, what I'm hearing is that fairness is something that's really important to you. Tell me if I'm hearing that correctly. And I have found that when we start talking about values, what's below what's going on, immediately the conversation gets deeper and that person sort of calms in a little bit. So it's it's, again, one of those little tiny tricks of and I mean, not trick. It's a tool for how do I get to the deeper listening. So maybe that's the way to help the buyer is

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Yeah. And if they aren't really listening to understand and, you know, they're they're feeling respected, then they'll probably turn around and do that with you as well. Hey. That was another idea I had. I was asking you earlier, what what's the right pacing between speaking and listening? And, we you know, one one thing we discussed, you know, there was a Gong.i0 study out of their Gong Research Labs. They looked at thousands and thousands of sales calls. And for executives, Andrew, they found that the pacing should be fifty fifty. So at the at the end of that conversation and with an executive speaking with you, it should they should have spoken for 50% of the time and and listened for 50% of the time just like you, the seller. Now a a junior person, maybe an influencer to the buying decision, maybe not making the actual decision at the end of the day, the economic decision, but, you know, a big influencer, maybe they're doing the technology review. At that instance, you know, maybe this seller speaks a little bit more demoing the product and doing different things answering, you know, pointed questions, of that person. Maybe about seventy thirty is what, the Gong IO lab study, determined. Any thoughts or reflections on that in terms of just pacing?

Andrew McMaster: Yeah. I think even even in those situations where you will be doing the demo on pieces, what I've coached people for as well as to how do I let the listener know that they are still in charge in a lot of ways. A big example was, like, here's the agenda and here's the things. I'd love for you just to tell me what's what's the most important thing here to you. And then you know what? Based on that, we're gonna start there. So I'm I'm signaling that it's really about you and it's what's most important to you even though I'm the one who's gonna be describing it. Because, yeah, what I don't wanna do is show up and throw up, you know, like, which which happens as you said. I I think the way I love to think of it is it actually happens out of exuberance. I care so much about what I'm doing, what I'm selling the product. I believe in it so much that I just you know? It it needs to be a dialogue, as you said, fifty fifty. It needs to be about the other person. Yeah. I'll make you laugh a little bit, hopefully.

Bruce Scheer: I was just playing around with a little movie clip. I I might wanna use it. But, do you remember the song circle of life? Oh, yeah. Where the monkey, you know, is there take take takes the baby and then brings it up on high.

Andrew McMaster: Yeah. That's so cool. I think a

Bruce Scheer: lot of sellers show up with that exuberance, but, there's a term that we use often. You know? Choose your own adventure and, allowing the buyer, hey. You know, we could look at a, b, or c. What what are you thinking about? Well, definitely c. That's really important to me. Okay. Let's push into that. You know? So Right. You know, let that choose your path. You're making those options available. So it is that collaborative dialogue and and listening and and talking. Yeah.

Andrew McMaster: What the willingness to let go, at that point too. I'm willing to let go of what my agenda is in order to say what's important for you. Wonderful. Let's go that direction.

Bruce Scheer: Nice callback to listen without an agenda. That's perfect.

Andrew McMaster: Just saying. I'm just saying.

Bruce Scheer: That's right. I saw what you did. Hey, well, any other big mistakes

Andrew McMaster: that you're seeing out there that could get in the way of a a better buying experience? I think there is a lot too where I I kind of get people to sort of look at more than just what they're hearing. Reflecting back what they're hearing, trying to go to the deeper part of it. It's also then just being aware that what you're seeing is an entire picture. And and that, I think, is is just kind of important for people to understand that sometimes that message is coming across physically, emotionally, in other ways rather than just the verbal words the person's saying. So your job as a sales professional is to see that whole picture.

Bruce Scheer: Absolutely. Gosh. Dang. Look at you. Perfect. For people on the YouTube show, I'm showing a picture of an iceberg, you know, which has part of the iceberg out of the water, the part that the Titanic hits probably, and then and then there's part an under the water as well. And, your your point about listening for the whole picture reminds me, Andrew, of a story, my sister-in-law. She, was a medical doctor specializing in in premature births. And, she was in the hospital one day and, a father came up to her and absolutely red faced, started into a verbal assault, and just said, you guys are not doing what you, you know, you're screwing up here. I noticed this. Just furious and shouting and and really creating total drama. It cat capturing all the attention of everyone around the waiting room and beyond shouting, totally angry. And, luckily, my sister-in-law had been into a lot of workshops with a guru called, Marshall Rosenberg who founded Nonviolent Communications. So she watched all that anger and, started thinking about it a little bit as well and then realized, okay. His need is is for, you know, safety for his child, and that's why he's flipping out. Yeah. And, then she responded to him saying, sir, I just have to, you know, promise you we're doing everything possible to help your baby. And and it's a very tough situation, but just know all our attention and focus is on this at this point in time. I I wish for you not to be as worried. I know that's hard, but, and, the guy just melted and just started weeping at that point. The anger was gone. You know, of course, behind anger is typically fear, but, you know, that that's where she literally listened to the the total iceberg. You know, what was above the surface, all that anger, and then all that fear and insecurity below the water, to to really help that person process and move forward.

Andrew McMaster: Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's a great example of, again, the full listening. What I'm hearing is this yelling and diatribe, but what's happening down below is that fear, the, you know, the awful feeling of my child being sick. Oh, you know? Yeah. That's that's that's the kind. There's, there's one

Bruce Scheer: to show you here too.

Andrew McMaster: Oh, yeah.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. One of my favorite toys. I kinda keep this here just to if I do hear some things like that, for everybody listening, I just showed a a doll that had a really, really scary face. Yeah. But I I have that as a little prop on my desk, just just in case I'm talking to someone and things are getting weird. Sometimes I can look at that and go, you know, some something's probably behind that. Let let's figure it out.

Andrew McMaster: Yeah. There's, there's a story that I use in the book too that talks about, one of, actually, one of my backers for the book and one of my friends used to work at a suicide hotline. And what they always told them was to match the intensity that someone came in with, because if people were like, I'm upset, and you went, well, let's calm down. It actually got people more upset. So it was letting them know that you emotionally understood where they are. Like, wow. Alright. There's something going on here. Let's talk about it because now when we talk about it, we can actually move you down. And and I've used that before. I mean, it sounds like a lot like what your sister-in-law was dealing with too. Like, it's the there's something here, and I have to match the intensity of that to go. There is wow. We're gonna help you, and we're gonna and and sometimes if people don't feel that emotional connection as well as the verbal piece, they don't think the message is there.

Bruce Scheer: Absolutely. And you've probably seen the, oh, this wisdom maxim that people buy on emotion

Andrew McMaster: Yes.

Bruce Scheer: And then they justify with logic. And even with my firm, ValuePro, so focused on business value, where's the real value? How do we quantify that? That still gets into the rational side of things, and and and we know the emotion drives that. But then also that's the evidence they need to go and sell, but very often the emotion drives that. So, you know, back to that sister-in-law story, she was listening for the emotion. So and specifically, what were the feelings in that emotion? Well, anger, you know, and and, you know, being scared and, you know, really tapping into some of those feelings. But then underneath those feelings, what are the needs that aren't being met? And then and then, you know, if we cannot identify that, then we can diffuse and and move forward. Same thing when you're dealing and selling and buying conversations. You can listen for that.

Andrew McMaster: And and a lot of, like you said, yes. I've got my data, and I've got everything in place, and I can show you exactly what this is gonna do. And that's wonderful. Rationally, I want it. Now all of a sudden, I've realized that if I get it, I get more time back, and I get to go see my kid's soccer game. Now we've got a real I don't know. Wow. You know? Now we've got a full package. I am emotionally attached to it. I'm, you know, I'm intellectually attached to it. It's a full package.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Absolutely. Well Oh, gosh. Gosh. I'm glad we talked about that. That's really important. What other practicals maybe even just give us some highlights from the book on on some things to focus on.

Andrew McMaster: Yeah. I I think the biggest thing is and the idea for the book too is just to bring awareness to what we are doing when we're naturally listening. Every one of us has learned to listen from our experiences growing up, people who were around us, people who helped to raise us. And so our listening is affected by that. It really is about, let's be aware of how I'm listening. The biggest next step that I recommend for people is, be aware of where you're solutioning. I think, a lot of the people that I deal with, a lot of, executives, especially, will come home at night and, you know, their spouse says something to them. They say, oh, okay. You know how to fix this. Let me tell you. And they're immediately responding to everything with solutions, you know. Their kid mentioned something about school and they're like, okay. Well, here's what you gotta do. Maybe it's not about solutioning in this moment. Maybe it's more about, wow, that sounds like that was difficult. Tell me more. So being aware of sometimes solutioning isn't the only option. Maybe sometimes making an emotional connection or just even listening and going, wow, I understand being a sounding board for someone. There are lots of different ways. The first step is sort of let's become aware of how we listen, and then let's try to incorporate what might be different styles or methodologies.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. No. I love it. Have you seen the, YouTube video, fork in the

Andrew McMaster: head? Oh, yes. Yeah. That's

Bruce Scheer: really funny.

Andrew McMaster: Yeah. I have such a headache. Well, maybe it's because of the stop telling me. Yeah. I did.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stop telling me what to do. You know, you're not listening.

Andrew McMaster: But there's a but there's a a fork that's right. No. It's not like a belt. Yeah.

Bruce Scheer: No. I I like it, but but it is true. You know, people, you know, are probably gonna be more willing to listen to you when they understand that you care. Remember that old maxim, oh, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care?

Andrew McMaster: Yep. Yeah. That that gets into listening. Yeah. Where you really need to you need to demonstrate that you care. Yeah.

Bruce Scheer: Absolutely. And listening is just so powerful in doing that. Also liked in your book, sometimes we get into little, you know, trickery and techniques around listening. Oh, Andrew, you just said that. Just a second, I'm gonna, you know, lean my head down and write that note down so you see that I'm listening. And, I I I like your point of view, and maybe you could illustrate that for us, but that might not be the best approach.

Andrew McMaster: Not really. I I mean, again, I I feel like there's a lot of there's a lot of performative sort of skills that people have given it. I see a lot in public speaking. When I'm teaching people for public speaking, they're like, make sure you walk. Don't move your hands much. Don't do this. Again, it's the don't do this. Don't think of a pink elephant. Mhmm. As opposed to give yourself something that's gonna be clear. If it helps you to write something down, then write it down. And also then as I say, be clear with people and name it and claim it and say, I'm sorry. I just wanna make a couple notes here. Just so you know when I'm disconnecting. I just because I wanna remember it. Be clear with people. That clarity, I think, is what makes that emotional connection.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. And that genuineness, that authenticity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew McMaster: Just in

Bruce Scheer: doing a different perspective.

Andrew McMaster: Every person. I I mean, I think we all listen with our own biases, our own ideas, and our own way of listening. So for each individual, we have to figure out what works best for us. The tools and exercises in the in the book are really more of the how do you gain your own authentic awareness of what works for you so that then you can be present for others.

Bruce Scheer: Sweet. Sweet. On that note, I just say, you know, any you know, in conclusion for this episode anyways, Andrew, there's so much to learn from you. But anything else you wanna leave us with before we round out?

Andrew McMaster: You know, I I would feel remiss as the improv guy since we did this before, to not sort of mention how some of those skills come in, which is just the the whole idea in improv of accepting and building. I I hear something, I say yes to it, and then I build on it. And to me, that also falls directly into listening skills. Even when your client that you're talking to, the buyer says, well, this is my reality. Even if you know it's not true, you go, oh, wow. Well, tell me more about that. I need to accept wherever their reality is and then build on it in order to basically get to the spot where I need to get to. So when you deny someone's reality, you've lost the sale immediately. So I think that yes and idea still falls into place, especially with effective listening and with any kind of, of any any sort of buyer journey.

Bruce Scheer: And what a beautiful callback to the episode we did on that, which was perfect. You know?

Andrew McMaster: Check that one out. Alright. Yeah.

Bruce Scheer: Please. Yeah. It's it's in the archive of the ValuePros Show for everybody listening and watching. You know, check it out. And, Andrew, you know, former founder, of Jet City Improv here in Seattle area, very successful and has done a wonderful job at teaching sellers how to yes and in a very profound way. Thank you. Yeah. And I still have your rubber band for snapping myself. Yeah.

Andrew McMaster: There it is. Right there.

Bruce Scheer: Yes, and. Very cool. Well, just wanna highlight for folks, Andrew's book's out on Amazon where you can get it listening without agenda. And, you know, so please, grab a copy. It's a great book. And, Andrew, I'd recommend everybody connect with you on LinkedIn. You know, just check out the beautiful photo on the, profile. Great banner, by the way. I really like how you set all that up. But,

Andrew McMaster: Thank you.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. For everyone, connect with Andrew on LinkedIn. And on that note, Andrew, I just really wanna thank you for joining the show.

Andrew McMaster: Thank you. I also wanna hold up the thank you for your book. Yay.

Bruce Scheer: With the best seller sticker, yes.

Andrew McMaster: Heck, yeah. It is.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're next, man. We gotta do this.

Andrew McMaster: Alright. Alright.

Bruce Scheer: Well, thank you, Andrew. Thanks for the time. Thank you. What a conversation with Andrew McMaster. We covered some powerful insights on the role of listening and sales and leadership, how to move beyond solutioning, stay in discovery mode, and really understand a buyer's needs. One of my biggest takeaways, people don't just buy products, they buy experiences. And listening, when it's done right, creates a buying experience that sets you apart. So if you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe to the ValuePro Show.

Andrew McMaster: And if you're feeling

Bruce Scheer: kind, leave a review so others can find and enjoy it too. Thanks, and wishing you success and good listening.