How to be Mindful in Discovery with Joy Rains

Bruce Scheer: Welcome to the ValuePros Show where value pros get value ready. Hi. I'm your host, Bruce Scheer. In this episode, we're diving into a crucial capability for sales success, your mindfulness in discovery. Joining us is Joy Rains, a mindfulness speaker and author with over 30 years of experience in b to b sales. Joy has written 2 books on mindfulness, including the book I read, Ignite Your Sales Power, Mindfulness Skills for Sales Professionals. She's been quoted major publications like Time, Forbes, and The Guardian. Joy is passionate about helping people enhance their careers and transform their lives through mindfulness.

Bruce Scheer: Get ready for some valuable insights on how to be more present and effective in your sales discovery process. Joy, it's great to have you on the show. So excited about this. We've been focused on how do you be value ready, and we built a framework and we've got this assessment tool that you can find off of valuepros.io. And you and I were in a cross book promotion and gosh, with 77 other authors and friends, and it was amazing. It helped my book get into the top ten category of sales and sales management yet again a year later. So did that stroke my ego and make me feel good to enjoy and I hope you add similar success, but it was a lot of fun just creating a lot of momentum and hijacking Amazon Prime and treating that as a, oh, gosh, a forcing function for us all to promote and help people with the things that we've written. And I was really excited.

Bruce Scheer: I read your book and I'm kinda rereading and studying it. It's ignite your sales power, mindfulness skills for sales professionals, and I love it. It's actually reminded me to start to get a little bit more quiet, to start to meditate, and you gave me some particular tools I can use to do that. So, Joy, welcome to the show. So glad you're here.

Joy Rains: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. And, yes, the way we met with the Kindle promotion was great fun.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Absolutely. And you were telling me you've got another book as well out? Or

Joy Rains: Yes. Yeah. Ignite Your Sales Power, Mindfulness Skills for Sales Professionals, which you just mentioned is my 2nd book. And it's specifically for those in the field of sales, which I've been in my entire career, really. My first book, Meditation Illuminated, Simple Ways to Manage Your Busy Mind, is for folks who wanna learn to manage their busy minds. I had so much trouble learning how to meditate 40 years ago. I just wanted a simple path. And being the daughter of an engineer, I said, why can't somebody just lay it out logically? And that's what I attempted to do in my book and from what I've heard from folks.

Joy Rains: They're very grateful for learning a simple way to manage their minds.

Bruce Scheer: Oh, I love it. Yeah. And even in the book for sales, Ignite Your Sales Power and the mindfulness that you're teaching within that book, you're giving some simple tools, some strategies. I have a place in your office or even the same pad that you sit on, but somehow create habit and routine around that. And then you've given me some distinctions that I was kind of intuitively aware of, but I hadn't really applied, but your distinctions are gonna help me get into that zone so much faster. And, boy, I bet everybody listening and watching this show knows that, hey. Meditation's critical for calming yourself, for anxiety, for visualization. So many different good things come out of this in terms of the health benefits and helping you get ahead in life.

Bruce Scheer: And I'm excited about this episode because one of our key readiness dimensions, we call it being discovery ready, and being mindful in discovery, I think, is critical. But I'm excited for you, Joy, to kinda break that down for us and take us on a bit of a ride and how can we be more mindful and get better results through better discovery.

Joy Rains: Absolutely. Bruce, everything you mentioned about meditation, how it can reduce stress and help you calm down, that's all so true. But what I found early in my sales career when I started meditating, boy, did it help me on my sales calls. So I've always had a b to b sales career, and I'm gonna age myself a little bit here. But when I started, I was a young woman. A lot of the folks doing b to b sales were men who are older. So I needed to center myself and just calm my nerves and say, I hope this customer takes me seriously and get my mind in the right place.

Bruce Scheer: Mhmm.

Joy Rains: And what I found by doing that and I can talk about some techniques I used also. But what I found by doing that was when I was face to face with a customer, I wasn't wrapped up in my own insecurities, my own nerves. Am I gonna close the sale? Especially if I had a sales manager with me, I wasn't wrapped up in how am I doing, and what are they gonna think about what I'm saying. But with mindfulness tools, I was able just to put all that aside and be in the moment with my customer so I could really discover what it is they needed. And I love this quote by the artist Georgia O'Keeffe. She says, with my art, I wanna make the unknown known. And I think that's what you're doing when you're with your customer. You're making their unknown and what they know that you don't know.

Joy Rains: You're making that known through tools. So I'll pause there. I could just go on about this all day.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. That'll be really interesting for you to go in and take us into some of the tools and techniques if time permit, and that makes sense for us. But the big why you were saying just to anchor on that, could you lay that out just in a short phrase, the why get mindful as it relates to discovery?

Joy Rains: Because it enables you to focus on the customer. See, people get wrapped up in their own thoughts. So the big why is how to be present to what your customer is saying, discover their needs, notice their buying signals, and figure out what questions to ask so you can ultimately have a partnership if there is one to be had.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. It makes sense. So that's in the moment. That's being mindful in the moment of the discovery dialogue. What about preparing for that conversation even before you get into it? Does mindfulness have a role in that?

Joy Rains: That's an important question, and I'm gonna mention an important distinction. You can be mindful with an internal experience, and that's the preparation stage. And you can be mindful with an external experience, and that's paying attention to your customer. So in the preparation stage, it's an internal mindfulness. Now I actually watched this morning. I called my sister this morning when I was taking a walk, and she said, you have to see this video of Gabby Thomas, the Olympic runner. She said she was on the daily show and you have to watch her video. And I'm gonna tell you what Gabby Thomas said because this goes to your question, how do you prepare yourself? She said, I ran that race so many times in my head.

Joy Rains: Now, by the way, she did win a gold medal.

Bruce Scheer: Mhmm.

Joy Rains: She said, I ran the race so many times in my head that when we were at the starting line, before we even started, I knew I had already won. See, she did that mental preparation and visualization. And that's what's so important for people in the sales profession to do. Rather than thinking, am I gonna get this sale? How am I gonna do? Just really go through it in your mind and play the game before you're in the game as sports players would say. So that's the internal mental training. Of course, it's important to do other things too, like research your company, look up your customer on LinkedIn, and all this sort of thing. Gather as much information as you can so you are actually prepared when you're face to face.

Bruce Scheer: Absolutely. Yeah. This is so funny. My wife and I just watched that clip last night and we're talking about it. We're like, wow. What an amazing woman. Not just in sports, but in life and her volunteer activity, etcetera. But that did strike me immensely how she premeditated at this before that.

Bruce Scheer: At the starting line, she was thinking she was visualizing victory there, being the winner, getting the gold. But then also during that race, I believe she was mindful. I don't know if he caught this, Joy, but she said that I knew that if I could get out of the gate well, that last 200 I own, that nobody can beat me there. And I know if I get out in front or you have a good start, I'm gonna win the race. And so during the race, I knew I had a good start. So, yeah, I knew I was winning this race. So not even before, but also during being mindful and thinking those thoughts and winning the race, I thought was really powerful.

Joy Rains: Absolutely. Yeah. I did hear that. That So powerful, and she was so inspiring.

Bruce Scheer: Yes. Absolutely. Well, that's interesting. So we talked about the internal a little bit, doing some of that premeditation and the mindfulness involved with that. I think you're gonna take us down the road of external at this point.

Joy Rains: Yeah. I will. And before I get into that, I'm just gonna go back to a time. I was in my early twenties. I was selling office phone systems to commercial accounts, and I was meeting my sales manager at a call. We were gonna call on the partner of a big law firm, and I was really, really nervous as I was driving there. And, again, I met him there, so I was alone in the car. I just felt my palm sweating.

Joy Rains: I was gripping the steering wheel. What's this 70 year old law partner gonna think of this 24 year old woman? What's my sales manager gonna think of me? My head was just spinning. So when I got to the office and I needed to make that switch from the internal, which really wasn't working for me at that point, I wasn't doing my visualization, but I needed to make the switch to go from me to the customer. So when I parked my car, I did a walking meditation on my way into the office. Every step I took, I noticed the soles of my feet as they connected with the ground beneath me. And whenever my mind started spinning, I just brought it back to the feeling of the soles of my feet. So I went from this internal anxiety to external sensations in the here and now, and that's a great way. To bring one's attention to the here and now is through what you're physically experiencing.

Joy Rains: And walking and noticing the soles of your feet is really a powerful exercise. So that when I got to the office and sat down, I was no longer in my head. Then I was ready to switch to the external experience, which was paying attention to my customer.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. I read that in your book about doing that. You gave attribution to somebody who had coined that. I'm sure some guru of meditation. Yeah. That is interesting. I haven't thought of that before, but just being mindful of putting your foot on the ground and how that feels as you're walking and and focusing there, perhaps quiet or let some of those thoughts flow by that that might be getting in the way. Yes.

Joy Rains: Exactly. And I mentioned a quote most likely, and this is what I mentioned a quote from meditation master Thich Nhat Hanh, who says to walk as if the soles of your feet are kissing the earth. But then once you can release all that dizziness in your mind, you can start to pay attention to the customer. Now keep in mind, we can process 500 words per minute, and people talk at 150 words per minute. So what are you gonna do when your customer's talking not to have your attention go off here and there? Then that's when you get into standard listening tools, open ended question, paraphrasing what your customer says back to you. Now I've been through a lot of sales courses over the years, and I've never learned listening skills as well as I did when I was a volunteer telephone counselor in a crisis intervention hotline. And they taught us counseling skills, and they really taught us how to listen. And I'll never forget the instruction I got early on.

Joy Rains: The instructor said to us trainee counselors, crisis intervention counselors. Now when somebody says something on the phone and they call, paraphrase it and repeat it back to them, and they'll know that you heard what they're saying. And I said, well, gee, wouldn't that be awkward to just repeat what somebody just said back to them? And the teacher said, oh, you think it would be awkward to repeat what somebody said back to them? And I totally missed that she just repeated what I said. And I said, yes. That's awkward. Oh, I see what you're doing. So paraphrasing back to your customers, such a powerful way to let them know, yes, I hear you. I'm listening to you.

Joy Rains: I understand you.

Bruce Scheer: Absolutely, Joy. I know in this day and age with AI and everything being recorded, etcetera, that you might not think to even taking notes as somebody speaking. And I just saw some data about this, but just the act of taking notes as somebody speaking, it sends this beautiful signal that you're respecting them, their points of view, what they have to add. And even though things are being recorded, it's in the cloud, etcetera. You could always access it. Just writing notes, not only just for yourself to improve your memory of what's being said or is it having something to reference back to quickly, but literally that act of being in the moment and respecting that person and truly capturing what they have to say. Just saw that recently.

Joy Rains: Absolutely. And then you can even read the notes back to them when you're done. Just so I wanna make sure I've understood everything you've said. This is what I heard. And is there anything you'd like to add? Is there anything I'm missing? It's the simple gestures like you say, Bruce, like taking notes that really can start to build trust

Bruce Scheer: and build relationship. Hey, Joy. We often in discovery, we help reps think through what questions they wanna ask, and that typically requires some deeper research and being very mindful about doing the research in terms of understanding that client, understanding the buyer, understanding their industry dynamics, and then asking very intelligent questions that customer might appreciate being asked, not self serving, but really quite open into questions that'll help evolve the dialogue. Do you have any point of view around that?

Joy Rains: Well, I do. First of all, I can't understate the power of questions and also the power of preparing the questions ahead of time like you just mentioned. Questions I particularly like are questions where you ask the customer to imagine things. If you could imagine the perfect solution to this problem, what would it be? I also am a big fan of questions that ask the customer's opinion because then you can gauge their temperature. You're not closing. These are your trial closes. Are they cold? Are they hot? In your opinion, what do you think of this solution? So imagination and opinion, I think, are both important things to delve into with your customer. Of course, the basic rule is questions that start with what, where, when, those open ended questions that are gonna elicit more than yes or no answers.

Joy Rains: And something else I learned in the hotline, which I love, they said, so your customer doesn't feel like you're just peppering that with question after question. They suggested using minimal encouragers, nodding your head, but also a verbal minimal encourager, which is to pick up on the last word of what your customer said and repeat it back with question. Maybe the customer says, well, we've had a big problem with our deliveries. And you could say, with your deliveries? And that would help them open up about it more. Yeah. Go a

Bruce Scheer: little level deeper. Yeah. The other dynamic of questions as I'm thinking about this, Joy, and being mindful in the questions would be listening for their language, their vocabulary, their distinctions that you can use with them to shape a case for change as if it's coming from them. You're not bringing a foreign language in or something that they don't understand. You're linking back to their world and the words they use to describe it. And as you said, asking them to envision what would success look like using some of those words as well to paint that beautiful picture of getting out of that problem state and moving to a better place, but listening for the language that you can use to shape that case.

Joy Rains: Yes. Absolutely. That's really important. What you're doing is you're mirroring back to the customer. And, again, this is a technique that builds understanding. So picking up on their language, very important. I will add that it's important to only use language that's comfortable for you to use too. I don't know.

Joy Rains: My mind is just going back to my parents when I was growing up, and they started saying things were groovy. And, that just doesn't sound right coming from them. But the mirroring back is very important. And, Bruce, in this stage, back to the mindfulness, it's important to listen to understand rather than to listen to respond. When I went into that law firm after doing the walking meditation, it was as if nothing existed in the moment I was talking to the customer, but what he was saying. My thoughts didn't exist at that point. Now, of course, it's important to tap into your thinking so you know what questions to ask and and how to go down a particular path. But when your customer is speaking, that's the time just to put everything aside and give them a 100% of your attention.

Bruce Scheer: Oh, I like it. I like it a lot. Gosh. He conjured up an old memory. I was selling to the CEO of Korn Ferry with 2 of my colleagues and friends, and it was such a wonderful meeting. But the CEO were getting towards the end of the meeting, and did we listen and take notes and really try to get in tune with what he was thinking about the change he wanted to make. And also linking to things that he might not have been seen and how we might be relevant in doing that. But it was so interesting.

Bruce Scheer: One of my colleagues had a 3 by 5 card with a bunch of tiny notes on it. And the CEO kinda chided him a little bit and said, hey. Why did you have to have a note card? I don't get it. And his immediate response was, I just wanted to make sure I was prepared just to respect your time and make sure we had the best meeting possible. And the CEO just loved it, and that's being mindful, the preparation, and keep up the questions and where the conversation needs to go. Yeah. And, boy, did that win some credibility points. And I thought at the time, boy, let's get a lower credibility because, gosh, you needed to have a grudge.

Bruce Scheer: Not at all. The CEO totally respected that.

Joy Rains: That's a great story. Yet he was shown the CEO, you're important to me. I care about our time together. And I can't understate again the importance of that caring attitude, that compassion for the customer, that preparation for the call, and respecting your time together. Not going off on a tangent, but sticking to the business at hand.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. No doubt about it. Yeah. Great lesson there. Well, where should we take this next, Joy? What are your thoughts?

Joy Rains: Well, my thoughts are to be mindful of the judgment that you may have going in to call on a client. Maybe you go in. The office is a mess. It looks like it's in shambles. You might think, oh, they don't have the money to buy or this sort of thing. And be mindful of the judgments and release them because judgment are not always your friend. Now I'm not saying not to have expectations or assumptions that you're gonna do business together if there is in fact an opportunity to do so, but to notice the stuff that creeps up. And, look, we all have judgments.

Joy Rains: You can walk into an office and see somebody, and for me, maybe it looks like the fella who was mean to me and teased me in elementary school. And then I might start having negative feelings towards my customer. So it's really important to watch what comes into your mind and clear it. Let it pass.

Bruce Scheer: Excellent. And totally agree. Back to that taking that step, what were you saying is your soles are kissing the earth that you're walking. But

Joy Rains: Yeah. Walk as if the soles of your feet are kissing the earth.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Just trying to get clear and not let all those thoughts cloud your thinking and your posture for being mindful. Yeah. K. Totally agree.

Joy Rains: Yeah. And I'll mention another tool here. I like stones, smooth stones. I often meditate with them. And rather than focusing on my breath, I might focus on the feeling of the stone in my hand, the shape of it, the texture of it, the weight of it, the temperature of it. And anytime my mind wanders, I'll bring it back to the feeling of the stone in my hand.

Bruce Scheer: Mhmm.

Joy Rains: And I've actually put a small stone in my pocket sometime. And if I find my mind wandering, I'll just touch that stone as a reminder to come back to the present moment again and again and again because it's the nature of the mind to wander. So this is where meditation comes in because it's a training of the mind to come back to the present moment again and again and again. And not everybody wants to learn how to meditate. Not everybody wants to sit there and focus on their breath. And the good news is you don't have to do that. You can learn to be mindful with whatever you do in life. You're washing your hands, and maybe your mind is going off this way.

Joy Rains: Come back to the temperature of the water in your hands. Come back to the feeling of the soap in your hands. And what you're doing is training your mind to come back to the present so that when you're with your customer, your mind has learned to come back to the present. And when they're talking at a 150 words and you're processing at 500 words and you start thinking about your next call or what you're gonna have for lunch, your mind knows, wait, I'm supposed to come back to the present. So you were talking about preparation before, preparation for the sales call. Well, you can do this sort of mental preparation by learning to redirect your mind back to the present every time it wanders, whether you're dedicating your time to sitting and meditating, or whether you're integrating this practice with whatever you're doing in life.

Bruce Scheer: I like it, a lot. I was curious. Have you heard of the technique, where you count down silently, but just 5, 4, 3, 2, 1? Have you seen that or heard that? I was reading a book recently, But another technique, you made me think of that as you think about rubbing the stone, the smooth stone that might be in your pocket or wherever you keep that just to make sure you're grounded and bring yourself back to the present, not wandering in your thought so you can be there and listen and add value there. But that 54321 technique has been helpful to me. I just learned that, you know, gosh, maybe a month ago. And it should it's a pattern interrupt. So you might be thinking even not just about lunch, but maybe a bigger life issue. But if you can count down 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, that can help break the pattern of thought because you're focusing on those numbers and then get back to what's at hand.

Joy Rains: Yeah. That's a great technique, and it's especially important that you've found a technique that works for you.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah.

Joy Rains: There's a meditation with numbers where you inhale to the count of 1 and you exhale to the count of 1, And then you say 22 with the next breath, and you get up to 10. And then you start again at 1, one number for each breath. And anytime you lose your place, you can start again at 1. I actually taught my mother that technique when she was around 80 years old because she likes numbers. So this was a great technique for her, and the numbers are working for you as well. Basically, Bruce, anytime you can interrupt that mind talk and come back to the present, whether you use numbers, whether you use physical sensations, you can use visual cues. Like, I like to walk in the morning, and if I'm not on the phone to my mother or my sister, I like to look at the shapes of the leaves on the trees, and that just helps bring me to the present moment. And and, again, feet are great.

Joy Rains: Feeling your feet on the ground. And I'm just thinking of Dorothy in the wizard of Oz tapping her shoes together. There's no place like home. Back to Thich Nhat Hanh, he says your true home is in the present moment.

Bruce Scheer: Oh, cool. Yeah. How lovely. Well, this has been a great discussion. Anything else you'd wanna add in for being mindful in discovery and bringing it back to, gosh, we gotta improve sales performance and be our best selves as we're interacting with our prospects. Any other notions there?

Joy Rains: Yeah. Well, I would say going back to something I said earlier just to repeat it. The internal experience is very important. So it's important to train your mind when you're not with your customer through visualizing success, like we were talking about Gabby Thomas, and also by training your attention to come back to the present. And then focusing on the external experience when you're with your customer, letting your judgments, letting your thoughts about yourself go, and treating your customer as if they're the most important person in the room because they are.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Great. That's perfect. Well, hey. I went to your website, Joy, and saw some great resources there. But what would you recommend for people that wanna take a next step and get serious about me being mindful, especially as it relates to to having better discovery and treating their customers the most important person in their world. What would you recommend? What's the path, and how can you help them in that regard?

Joy Rains: Yeah. Well, Bruce, there's many different paths. I think the most important thing is that people find a technique or techniques that are comfortable with them. Certainly, my books are available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. If people wanna reach out to me, they can find me on LinkedIn. I do individual consultations or group presentations. There's also great apps to learn to meditate. Insight Timer is 1.

Joy Rains: You can find some of my meditations there along with meditations from, I don't know, 1500, 1800 other teachers. And I would say it's an ongoing process, so be patient with yourself. It's the nature of the mind to wander. When you're with your customer, Come back to them again and again. Practice listening with your friends and your family. They will love you for it. And most of all, be patient with yourself and have fun.

Bruce Scheer: Oh, boy. Wonderful, wonderful advice. Gosh. You made me think about my late great mother, really powerful woman celebrated by president Reagan as one of the best administrators in grade schools across the nation. But as people reflected about her, they used to always say she was such a great listener. Obviously, she had the mindful techniques and ability to really be present and make sure people felt special when they were around her. Really powerful.

Joy Rains: Wow. She sounds like an amazing woman.

Bruce Scheer: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Lucky you are. Very lucky. Yes. Yeah. Well, Joy, this has been a great episode. Thanks so much for your contribution to the Value Pros people that are listening and watching this episode, and I wish you success in what you're doing and just thanks so much.

Joy Rains: Thank you. It was a pleasure to

Bruce Scheer: be here. Appreciate it. Well, that wraps up our episode with Joy Rains on mindfulness and your discovery. Remember, you can learn more about her work at joyrains.com. If you found value in today's discussion, please share this episode with your colleagues and leave us a review. For more resources on becoming value ready, visit valuepros.io. Until next time, this is Bruce here reminding you to stay mindful and value focused in your sales journey.