How to Lead with an Assessment with Bruce Scheer and Paul Roberts

Bruce Scheer: Welcome to the ValuePros Show where value pros get value ready. Hi. I'm your host, Bruce Scheer. And today, we're diving deep into the critical aspect of value selling, how to lead your customer with the business value assessment. I'm thrilled to be joined by Paul Roberts, a global adviser who has spent years helping fortune 5 100 and midsize companies sell value by providing insights, assessments, and consultancy. I've personally worked with Paul for about 10 years, and man oh, man is he solid. He brings a wealth of experience having led consulting units at significant firms like Ernst and Young, PWC, and corporate executive board, and having helped companies like Siemens, BT, and Medtronic elevate their sales approaches. In this episode, we'll unpack how helping your buyers with business value assessments can differentiate the sales experience, elevate trust, and ultimately help you lead your customers to success.

Bruce Scheer: If you're looking for practical ways to elevate your customer engagements and truly be a trusted advisor, this episode is for you. I hope you enjoy it. Well, Paul, I am so excited for our episode today. Thanks for joining the ValuePros Show. And, man, you and I both have a deep passion around creating assessments for clients. And, we both had, you know, just through prior our prior discussions, huge success in increasing win rates. You know, one of the key metrics right now in this tough market by, using assessments between the clients we serve and their buyers. And so this whole episode is how to lead your customer with assessments, and Paul Roberts is just absolutely masterful at doing that.

Bruce Scheer: I've I've kinda had a few trips around the block as well. So we'll we'll we'll we'll show and tell and talk and have a great time, in this episode. Thanks for joining, Paul. Okay.

Paul Roberts: Pleased to

Bruce Scheer: be with you. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, why don't we get in kind of the first phase here? Why lead your customer with assessments? And, Paul, I'll just kick it over to you. Why get into this? Yeah. Thanks, Bruce. I think there are

Paul Roberts: a lot of different angles here. I mean, one clearly is to try and shift the perception of value away from technical or product value up to more strategic or business value. So, you know, clearly, when you can do that, it is gonna influence the customer much more in terms of buying off you or expanding with you or staying with you, right, if it's an existing account. So a lot of different reasons for that. I mean, clearly, it can differentiate the whole sales experience as well, Just, having the seller or the seller's colleagues go into a customer and carry out some sort of high value assessment is gonna differentiate the whole experience, particularly if the competition don't provide that

Bruce Scheer: as an offering. And,

Paul Roberts: it's gonna enable you to, get up and engage more senior stakeholders at the customer, and really be that trusted adviser. And I know that is a little bit of a cliched term, and it's been around for a long time now, but it is still incredibly relevant. You need to be able to, advise the customer on why change, what to change, how to change. And if you can do that, you're clearly in the number one spot to actually sell them your product services solutions afterwards.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Absolutely, Paul. Couldn't agree more. I mean, in this day and age, we're really competing on this buying experience, in my opinion. And, God, I mentioned to you that horrible stat. 70% of buyers prefer to have a sales free experience. But when you come in with an assessment back to your concept of being a trusted adviser, I learned this from Anthony and ERI Iannarino in the in the sales universe, but he was like saying, hey, trusted advisers, they gain trust and they have advice. And that's and having an assessment really puts you into that position to to earn their trust and then also to deliver really tangible, great advice through using assessment.

Bruce Scheer: So and as you say, you'll stand apart from the competitive, pack in terms of that sales experience, that buying experience. You you'll you'll you'll be in a a class of 1 typically when when this goes well as you and I have experienced. So anyways, huge reason for and then I talked about a little bit just some of the key metrics is, hey, you're investing a little bit more time, but, you know, the correlation is your win rate goes way up. Your ability to sell more goes way up. And and actually, if it goes really well, you're that sales cycle should shorten, you know, because you're going to be setting everyone up, including your buying champion and all those stakeholders that need to be aligned with a compelling reason to move forward based off that assessment and and the associated business case with acting upon that. So we've talked about the why, but now, Paul, as you would advise me, let's get into the what. What do we access? And I want it just to precede this a little bit with just different assessment types. And, so there's lots of assessments that that could be done.

Bruce Scheer: You know, our firm valuepros.io, we create assessments for our clients that they can use with our buyers, even their digital buyers. They're, you know, human to digital type of buyers. So everybody's probably seen the stats. 70% of the buying journey happens online pre pre talking to sales. And, we build, assessment for, you know, that that would sit off a website that an online buyer could find and interact with. You know, we've done that for NetApp, Thompson, Verizon, you know, a lot lots of bigger firms, to support that digital to human buying experience. And I'll show something like that today, but I'd put that on one side of the continuum versus very deep assessment where and that's where Paul really kicks in with his experience on that. So, is that a good framing, Paul, in your opinion, for, how to set up these different assessment types? And I'll go ahead and show some examples.

Paul Roberts: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think a lot of it comes down to what are the customers' expectations. Okay? So if you're in an industry sector where this is pretty much the norm, you've obviously got to get your act together and do a really great job. There are some industry sectors out there, particularly outside of tech, that are really immature and undeveloped in this type of area. A lot of it comes down to if you think customer segmentation as well. So clearly your larger, biggest strategic accounts, you're gonna really wanna do something good quality with them as opposed to a real light touch assessment, and they may be really underwhelmed by that. Whereas, maybe a midsize customer or even a smaller one may be very happy with a lighter touch assessment. So clearly, there is a cost of sale angle to the assessment in terms of how deep you go, to what extent is it virtual, remote versus in person.

Paul Roberts: I mean, when I think about I do work a lot in the industrial sector. You know, oftentimes then the sellers and their colleagues will need to physically visit a site or multiple sites, walk around, you know, talk to people, look at data. I mean, that's very different from saying to a, hey. Send me a little bit of information on this. We'll run it through a tool, and it'll spit out some answers or some sort of assessment. Absolutely, Paul. I'll probably even create a little framework for

Bruce Scheer: what we just started talking about. But, you know, you can have free, assessments all the way up to, you know, paid assessments by by the buyer. And then you can have, you know, complex assessments and simple assessments, you know, online in person. Yeah. A number of different dimensions for thinking about how, you know, what to assess and and how to assess. What I wanted to do is just show, typical, assessment. We we ourselves created one that I'm hoping everybody either listening or watching the show is really gonna kinda jump out there and take. It's free to you, but it it's really awesome.

Bruce Scheer: We call it our value ready assessment. And, Paul, we had created this assessment based on 10 dimensions that we identified where sales reps need to show up value ready if they're gonna be perceived as value professionals and and really create that differentiated buying experience. And so, you know, follows this framework with 4 key stages of build trust, understand needs, deliver insights, drive execution. But if they come over to valuepros.io, and then, value assess value ready assessment with and you can see this under our resources, drawer as well. This is the assessment. So people, watching the show, you can see my screen for people listening, and I'll describe it to you. But, yeah, you come into the website. You're you know, you get the why take the assessment.

Bruce Scheer: What is the assessment? What are the dimensions of it? What's a sample output? Because you need to get people interested in actually doing the assessment with you, then people get into it. They just start to click through and, against each of those 10 dimensions, they rate themselves on a 5 point scale. You know, they move all the way through that, and once ready, it creates this, it gives them an assessment, a spider chart of how they landed across the key dimensions. And then they also get a report that they can view that that's just absolutely amazing, you know, piece of wisdom and and focus element. So everybody on the show, I I certainly hope you will take the report. Here's an example that I'm showing. I'll I'll describe it as well, but you'll come in and you'll just get this rich PowerPoint oriented, presentation, how you scored across the 10 dimensions, what's the what are the kind of the top line opportunities for you, and then specific recommendations for what actions you can take across each one of those dimensions to improve your score and and hence improve your value readiness. And then at the end of the report, we have numerous resources for you to get into for to to learn how to up, you know, up your game across each one of those dimensions.

Bruce Scheer: So, Paul, this is an example of kind of a rich online free to the customer type of assessment. Any observations from you?

Paul Roberts: Yeah. I I think, you know, a lot of organizations need to consider the breadth of options, as I say, whether it's something like this, some segments versus something perhaps more in-depth for recognizing or taking into account what the competition are doing. Okay. So if they're doing kind of like really deep level of assessment, you're gonna need to take that into account as you think what is the right assessment for our customers. You gotta think, well, where do my buyers get their advice from today? Okay? So are they getting it from, the competition? Are they getting it mainly from consulting firms? So there'll be some industry sectors where really the sales organization that is selling products and services needs to really be seen in in in some areas as an alternative, a quality alternative to one of the big accountancy or or consulting firms that would, kind of typically go in there in the past. And, you know, when I think back to one of my corporate roles, Bruce, we developed a an assessment, a consultancy offering that, ultimately, customers were feeding back to us, hey, I don't need to go back to KPMG or Deloitte anymore, and and and get their help on on this area because you guys are now helping me on this area. I don't need the advice. You guys are are giving me the advice, and I know you're gonna sell product, but it I trust you, and it you know, and and all of your kind of calculations and assumptions and everything else are in there.

Paul Roberts: So that's great. And, actually, we'd prefer your your advice to some of the stuff we get from one of the, one

Bruce Scheer: of the big firms. Yep. You bet. Yeah. That that makes sense. But why don't we push a little deeper, Paul, into your model here? And again, you'll need to describe this for people listening. But, you know, in terms of going deeper into that more, deeper assessment land and and competing with, you know, perhaps, the larger consultancies that might charge just a a bomb and bring a a bus busload of consultants in. Yeah. There there is a a way to do this. Do it practically. Go ahead and describe, you know, the the probably the the beefier, more complex type of assessments, Paul.

Paul Roberts: Yeah. For sure. Well, let let's start just thinking about the buying cycle. Right? Let's not think about selling. Let's think about how customers are buying. So I think everyone listening will have a model a mental model in their head. There are a number of diagrams out there, you know, all fairly similar over the last 10 or 15 years that really talk about customers thinking about why would I change what I do today in terms of the kind of status quo through to, why would I change, and then work with you? Okay. So that's a separate point.

Paul Roberts: Why would I work with you, the provider, to, implement the change? And, obviously, after you've signed the contract and you've delivered something, maybe 3, 6, 12 months later, they're gonna be thinking, did you actually deliver the value that you promised, many, many months ago? So I think the idea of an assessment can come in at various different stages. It could be a new business kind of why change assessment. It could be an expansion, as in, you know, you already work for this customer, but maybe you're in a multi supply arrangement, one of several. Right? You might have 5 or 10 or 20%, and you might be looking to differentiate yourself against the others and and try and get more business. Or it could be more of a why stay, as in, you know, the customer thinking, I I need some proof of the value that you guys have delivered. And I don't want the account manager to turn up and talk about what I've spent in KPI performance in terms of service and all of that. I need something beefier that really talks value and elevates the value up to a strategic level. So, ultimately, you know, customers are thinking about, how do I, make more money? How do I save money? Or how do I manage risk? Nearly everything goes up into 1 or more of those 3 high level strategic, imperatives.

Paul Roberts: Yes. So once we thought about where does the assessment fit, I think there's a couple of angles here. As we all know in the last 10 or 15 years, the world of insight led selling, has grown rapidly. It's probably one of been one of the biggest movements, one of the most exciting things that, you know, in my view, you know, most large organizations have, doubled down on to varying levels of success, right, in terms of how do we get our sellers to lead with insight. Now often, what you say to our buyer won't be enough. You could go in there with a great insight, and the buyer might say, yep. I can get it. However, before I'm prepared to socialize this with my peers and try and drive some start getting up some momentum to change, I need what you've just said proven for my organization.

Paul Roberts: I need you guys to come back in, talk to people, you know, look at some of our information data, look at options, and come back because what you're talking about is a big change here, and I'm not gonna do that off the back of a sales meeting where you guys had come in, you know, a a crisp, snappy message, that I do need it proven with my numbers in the mix. So it can it can dovetail nicely off the back of an insight and assessment. Alternatively, if a if a frontline, sales rep doesn't have some great short insights to share. I've seen a lot of organizations go in and just say, hey, based on our experience of serving other organizations like you, you know, we would think that you might be spending 10% or 20% more than you need to. In this area, we we would think that perhaps your revenue is being limited in that area. We might think that your customer experience or operational efficiency is lower than it needs to be. What I would like to do is bring in my colleagues and perform some sort of assessment. So they could bring in some colleagues or specialists in this area or the seller perhaps, you know, if they're able to and if it's not the most complex client, may have the capabilities to go back themselves and run some form of assessment, whether it's a a few hours or a few days for the bigger opportunities.

Paul Roberts: So I think the idea of leading with insight is is kind of joined at the hip with with assessments. You don't need to do both. But for organizations, particularly, that are focused on insight led selling, they do need to think about the assessment stage, and they do need

Bruce Scheer: to make sure that it dovetails if what the frontline sellers are saying and what happens next. Absolutely. Absolutely. Totally agree. I wanted to highlight also, Paul, and I'm sure you'll agree with this, but, best practice for how do you how do you follow through with, let me see if I've got that visual here for us. Yeah. So, you know, we can have a light assessment or a deeper assessment. But the the key thing that I think about when I'm advising clients, Paul, is what are we gonna do with that assessment, and how do we get alignment around that assessment? So even with this assessment types, visual, if you're if you're watching the show, the visual on the right, if you're listening, it's a person standing up at a at a whiteboard point or or a projector screen pointing at the results of an assessment with everybody checking it out, tuning in, and and getting alignment around that.

Bruce Scheer: And, I I do think that the assessment is a wonderful piece of work to get the type of information needed for decision makers to make decisions and to gain that alignment. And, man, when when when assessments have gone right in my career, it's where we have that concerted step around an alignment meeting and a planning meeting and and and an action plan that comes from that, which includes buying that solution and moving towards deployment. But, you know, it's it's really a lever point for for alignment and making decisions when I see this done right.

Paul Roberts: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And and I think, you know, for most types of assessments, there are gonna be 3 types of work phases needed. 1 is clearly gathering information. Right? Whether that's the customer or maybe it's some external benchmark information as well or whatever. It could be some qualitative. It could be some quantitative, maybe a mix of both.

Paul Roberts: It's analyzing that information you've got back and, interpreting it. And then the 3rd piece clearly would be developing options and and recommendations, to put back to the customer. So, So there could be a workshop in the middle of that as part of that work. There might not be. It might be some sort of report that goes back. It may be some sort of presentation, but clearly, it does need to be compelling. It needs to be high quality. And clearly, in some industry sectors, the risk management needs to be thought about as well.

Paul Roberts: So I'm particularly thinking about financial services and healthcare and areas like that, right, where you know, you would want, as our as our commercial organizations, some checks and balances in place just to ensure that what your team is going back with is robust, particularly if the buyer is, you know, viewing the output that they get as maybe formal advice versus just, you know, guidance, that type of thing.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Yeah. And then when I the buying psychology and selling psychology that I've witnessed that's produced the the best outcomes for my clients has been it's almost like a even a peer to peer selling relationship between, you know, a a head of sales or CRO or somebody on the ex XCO reaching out to their counterpart at at the counter organization saying, hey. You know, there we see a huge opportunity for you in the solution area. We're willing to invest some resources to do a proper assessment so you can see what the potential impact's gonna be, for your organization. And, but what we do ask if we're gonna invest that time and energy, we ask you to reciprocate and make sure the right people are at the table when we, reveal the results of that assessment. And, so we can, you know, see see what the impact can be and then make the right choices and decisions accordingly by having the right people in the room. Do you agree? And and if we've got that that agreement, then the assessment can, ensue and and the right people show up and and the magic happens.

Bruce Scheer: And, Paul, I had mentioned this to you before, but I did a project between Hewlett Packard and Microsoft where we identified 8 solutions, to that we wanted to go to market with. And, you know, the the cost of the client was was in the the 1,000,000 to to deploy one of these solutions. So, of course, we needed to have an assessment and all the right people at the table, but that that, peer to peer selling and agreement setting pre assessment really set the stage for success for both the seller and the buying success. And, when when we had a workshop, we designed a 2 hour workshop around that that resulted in over a 50% win rate or a deal close rate. When when when everything went right, we had that workshop in place, client showed up, 50% of those clients bought.

Paul Roberts: Yeah. That's very that's very impressive. That's a great story. And I think, to your earlier point, a lot of this is about trust. So sales organizations need to manage the level of commitment that they're going to provide to an organization. I have seen, and I've been burnt by this myself personally, where we have rolled up, you know, with a with a prospect, a new business, gone in, you know, done a pretty deep assessment, and the customer loved it. And And they said, this is kinda great. You know, I don't need to, you know, spend x1000 or or euros or whatever with someone else.

Paul Roberts: This is great. And they were pretty cheeky. They they they took the advice, and then still went out to a full kind of RFP and went with the cheapest providers. So they kind of got the best of both worlds. So we learned what that in terms of how to manage the level of effort that we would provide. And there are various ways around that in terms of, you know, how much do you provide upfront, how do you

Bruce Scheer: try and manage that risk.

Paul Roberts: And there are many, many different kind of models to make sure that you minimize the situation where you're, you know, you're going the extra mile with the customer, but they're deciding and you might provide a great experience, but they're still maybe got some, you know, kind of more old fashioned procurement types in there who are thinking, this is great, but I'm gonna, you know, just kinda go with one of the cheapest providers after him as they get the best of both worlds.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Paul, that that's one area. I was serving the one client emphasis. They were so bummed. They spent so much time and energy on a deal, and then instead of, you know, going with emphasis for their services and and some of their their additional technology as part of their cloud strategy for this particular target prospect, The target prospect went through the assessment, took all that wisdom and everything, and then just went directly to Amazon Web Services AWS and just cut them out of the deal. But, you know, I would just argue, you know, the art of a great assessment, it should play to both the the buyer's interest and the seller selling into entities interest. That that's where it's win win, truly, but it needs to play to differentiated value of of this the solution. And if it doesn't, then then you get those end runs that aren't very fun at all after all that time and energy.

Bruce Scheer: But when again, when it goes right, you know, an assessment, a proper assessment, it's a cost to sale, it can be, Or, one of my clients even charged, $75,000 for an assessment, and they were giving that that as a rebate to the client if they spent so much within a certain time period. They'd they'd get their money back, if you would, in terms of a credit against some of the solution they were buying. So, anyways, it it doesn't have to be a a, you know, a total loss. You can get some money for it, especially if that client chooses not to engage at a deeper level because there is true value in that assessment, and it needs to be, sold as a valuable engagement. And that's one thing I've learned. I I did this type of work with DXC as well and, one of the largest service providers in the world. And, we did. We, you know, just like any product you go to market with, we really tightened up and made this assessment, its own thing, its own marketing, its own infographics, etcetera, but made it more tangible for the buyer so the buyer could see the real value behind that exercise, versus just something bypassing an ad hoc.

Bruce Scheer: No. Very concerted. Here's the objectives for it. Here needs to, who needs to be participating in the assessment. Here's what the workshop looks like. Here's what the outcomes will expect from that workshop. Here new here's who needs to be there. Everything really concretely detailed to make that work.

Paul Roberts: Yeah. And I think if you position it in that way and, you know, and the the look and feel of the communications and the emails around it, as I say, resemble a professional services type engagement. I think most customers then will sit back and kind of realize what they're getting if it's something complex. And hopefully, that will smooth things, you know, over the coming days and the weeks. And as I said, we are talking about the most complex type of assessment here as opposed to a kind of lighter touch or just a questionnaire based assessment that you might do for a smaller class. I do just briefly want to touch on a great point you made, which is even charging for some assessments. So again, this comes to why you assess in the 1st place. I mean, clearly, you know, it is to be that adviser.

Paul Roberts: It is to try it is effectively crudely as a sales aid to win more business, expand, or defend. I have seen a lot of organizations start thinking, well, hold on. Could this be a new income stream? Yeah. Okay. For advice, which can be great. I do but I've also seen organizations think that and then actually lose track of, you know so they've made a little bit of money out of it. It's it's super small compared with what they could have been doing if they had kind of done it almost for nothing and it's sold more product and services. So organizations, I think, need to get very clear on, you know, what is the purpose, the kind of the raison d'etre of of providing advice? Is it to sell ultimately lead to more products and services? Or could it be and they could get distracted by this.

Paul Roberts: Could it be, oh, this is a new nice high margin revenue stream? How much higher margin on our products and services? But if organizations that are really just trying to sell this as a freestanding service, they can maybe, come out of it almost worse than if they just thought about the much, much bigger prize in most organizations of

Bruce Scheer: this being the, you know, the spearhead, the the tip, if you like, of the whole sales and customer experience and relationship. No. Totally. It really does. And I've been in and hide our dialogues and arguments even, and I'm sure you have too. Is this sales leverage, or is it its own thing? You know? Is it out of the sales organization, or is it out of professional services? And, you know, just trying to figure the and and what are their goals versus their goals? And, your advisement also, you know, I agree with as well. You gotta lead with the buying entity and, you know, what do they need and then figure it out. But, you know, obviously, this is such a wonderful approach, you know, because the big prize is increasing win rates, especially for bigger deals and grow growing that relationship with the customer, especially when you do the swing back assessments around, you know, how how have we done and what else can we do, as as part of that, you know, why stay type of paradigm that you'd mentioned, Paul? Well, hey.

Bruce Scheer: Paul, let's, bring it in for a landing. I'd just ask you, is there anything else on your mind that you thought people need to be thinking about before we break on this episode?

Paul Roberts: No. I think the big questions are why do it, what to assess, and how. And I think, the what to assess sounds like it's pretty obvious. Right? If you if you if you provide products and services in, you're gonna be assessing what is the status quo of the customer, what are the alternative approaches that they might be taking. All I would say is that oftentimes it makes sense for the sales organization to maybe broaden that out a little bit in terms of the breadth of what they look at at the customer. So sometimes it might make sense to look at some things, you know, just outside of of maybe their products and services that can it would just make sense to the customer if they get a report back that looks at a particular area and if it excludes certain things that the sales organization doesn't do, sometimes that can look a little bit odd in the eyes of the customer. Right? So as an example, I work for an organization that used to provide fleet vehicles in rides, so trucks, vans, cars, at a fleet level, thousands of them into different organizations. And when we went in and did assessments, you know, we would look at some things in that ecosystem as the customer saw it, you know, related to fuel, related to, accidents and rates and and insurance and taxation, and all the

Bruce Scheer: rest of it. Right? And some of those things, we didn't have a product to sell to solve a particular problem, but it was just pretty obvious to us that it would be sensible to look at some related areas. It was fairly easy for us, and also it delivered a lot of value back to the customer, and it just helped with the whole the whole package, if that makes sense. Awesome. Oh, yeah. Totally. Totally. Well, you know, I just really encourage our our listening and viewing audience.

Bruce Scheer: You know, if if you think an assessment's gonna help in your area, you know, please, please reach out to us. This is what we do, one of our favorite things to do, Paul and I. The other thing is, if you wanna see what a good assessment looks like that that's more on the free side and also probably directly related to yourself. If you're a revenue team leader, you wanna assess your team, or if you're an individual contributor, team, or if you're an individual contributor and you wanna assess your own abilities across these value ready dimensions, how value ready are you? Please, take our free online, value ready assessment, and you'll find that at valuepros.io resources. Go to the resources tab, value ready assessment, and and have some fun there. It's it's a very rich resource into what Paul was saying, bring value to the buyer for you. You'll have a lot of, resources that you could take advantage of to improve your value readiness across all those 10 dimensions. So, anyways, back to you, Paul.

Bruce Scheer: Paul, thank you so much for joining the show. This has been awesome.

Paul Roberts: Yeah. I know. It's been great talking with you, Bruce, and, hopefully, this has been a

Bruce Scheer: useful session as well for all of those, growth leaders out there that are trying to find new ways to, to drive growth in their business. Absolutely. Yeah. 2025, I think, is gonna be rough, and, this will be one huge area that'll improve the the the buying process and the selling activity. Having an assessment in your quiver will be very helpful. Thank you, Paul. Thanks, Bruce. Cheers.

Bruce Scheer: Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the ValuePros Show. Paul Roberts' insights have been fantastic. It's clear that assessments can be such tool for guiding our customers to a better outcome and setting ourselves apart in a crowded marketplace. For those of you listening, don't hesitate to reach out to Paul on LinkedIn. You just need to type in Paul Roberts advisor into the search bar bar, and he'll show up immediately. Or you can find him here at valuepros.io if you're interested in leveraging Paul for assessments or for your sales strategy. We we'd be excited to work with you on that. And don't forget, we've got a fantastic free resource for you, the value ready assessment.

Bruce Scheer: Head over to valuepros.io, go to the resources tab, and take the value ready assessment to see how prepared you and or your team are to deliver value to your customers. It's a great way to identify areas to improve and ensure your value ready for 2025. Thanks again, everyone, and stay value focused.