Improving the Total Value Experience through marketing with Bruce Scheer and Neil Wilkins

Bruce Scheer: Well, Neil, I am so excited for you to be on the show today and and talking to you about this topic that's I'm super, super passionate about, and we'll be speaking a lot about this in 2025. It's kind of a theme for us, but my business partners and I and other stakeholders, we've been thinking about this whole concept of total value experience. And so what what we're trying to do is it's beyond the product or beyond the the offering. A lot of people think about, hey. What's the the value of that offering? What's the the business value, the emotional value, the tangible value, the strategic value? Thinking about the offering and and having that offering adopted by the customer. But that's crazy important, and we do a beautiful job of helping, our clients characterize that. But this bigger concept is also the buying journey. How do we impact the total value experience of that journey so the buyers can buy and realize that potential value? So it's it's it's above and beyond product.

Bruce Scheer: It includes product, but what's the total value experience? And so you and I were talking about this, Neil, about, you know, just how do we improve the total value experience through marketing? I know it's it's you know, any go to market effort and team has, you know, multiple hats, multiple pillars, you know, that all need to magically come together to create this total value experience. But, you're a master in marketing, and I'm excited to get your spin on marketing's role in creating this total value experience. So let's talk about you, Neil, just for a little bit and kind of why you're here, about you and and, the coolest company name I think I've seen in the marketing consulting world, Vypr. But tell us about you, Neil.

Neil Wilkins: So yeah, Bruce. Well, I I've been in marketing now for some three and a half decades and counting, and it it does feel like it sometimes, but it's so exciting. I think the the reason I stick with it, the reason I'm so passionate about, yeah, value, purpose, you know, the vision, you know, and the kind of real strategic end of of the marketing scale is, I guess, is because it is ever evolving. You know, for me, I I you know, and you you'll know this, Bruce, you know, in the work that you're doing is it you can never stand still. It is always evolving and changing. And if you can embrace that kind of level of change, there's always opportunity. There's opportunity to get more competitive, to break into new markets, just to do exciting stuff, and I think that's what's always kept me so passionate as an educator. I I do a lot of work here in the UK with Cambridge Marketing College as a podcaster where I get to speak to some of the craziest minds, you know, in sales and marketing and business development and entrepreneurship across the world, and it is just such an honor to be part of the kind of podcasting community and, of course, work with clients.

Neil Wilkins: So I'm actually there at the coalface trying to figure it out with marketplaces and sectors where this stuff is a challenge. I mean, it is. It's real.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. And I just wanna highlight for the audience that, you know, you and I, we met on your podcast, the Neil Wilkins podcast. And, I I at the time, I had just launched my book, Inspire Your Buyers, Go to Market with a Story That Sizzles. And, so my goal was to help, you know, our clients and other people that probably couldn't afford our our service fees to at least have a book that they could apply in their own world to create a a sales narrative that sizzles is what I would talk about, Neil. And it was really fun having you interview me on that and talking about that. And, Neil, I don't know if I mentioned to you, but it's reached top 10 in sales and selling management 3 times since you and I met, on on your podcast. So it's kind of I'm kinda ending 2024 on a bit of a high. I'm almost to a 100 reviews and, still holding at a a solid 4.9.

Bruce Scheer: So it is.

Neil Wilkins: It's been but I love that point one, though, Bruce. I love the point one because there's still room for improvement. I'm a little

Bruce Scheer: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. No. I'm probably gonna have to get a 1,000 reviews to get it into 5. You know? I I think I had some troll hit a 3, didn't even leave a comment, etcetera. But who who looks at that? You know? I'm just looking at, you know, some of the praise.

Bruce Scheer: It's it's just, boy, it's inflated my ego to say the least. But, yeah, just back to our storyline, we met on the podcast. I really respect you, and I you you teach so many people and give back, which I think you and I with our podcast, that's what that's all about, just having fun with that. So, back to this topic, though, just to make sure people get what they need. You know, we're talking about total value experience. I was describing that, but, part of the genesis of this, weirdly enough, stems back to some time I spent in Singapore. And I flew this gentleman out first class to, be our headliner at a service and quality conference. And his name's Karl Albrecht, and he'd he'd written so many different books.

Bruce Scheer: But I picked up this book of his. It's called The Only Thing That Matters, and, he really, really was seminal and way ahead of his time, but he's talking about the only thing that really matters is customer value. And, you know, he's probably even shaped, you know, the name of our company, ValuePros.io. You know, that's just the heart of, you know, our DNA. We're trying to help buyers and sellers, you know, what I say, get out of the value fog and clearly identify, articulate, and realize the value associated with the change that's being proposed. So it kinda came from Carl, but we've been thinking about, again, the concept of total value experience. Now you and I, met, and we were talking about how do you how does marketing what's marketing's role in influencing the total value experience across the journey, the buying and selling journey that needs to transpire for an organization to adopt a new solution and get off to the races and and achieve that potential value. So we were talking about that, and we'll dig into it further, but I'd shared a framework with you, what we call our value ready framework.

Bruce Scheer: But before we dig in on some of the detail, Neil, just a big question to you is why why is improving the total value experience, what we call TVE, through marketing so important? What would you say on that?

Neil Wilkins: Yeah. It's it's a fascinating question, isn't it, Bruce? Because I think so many organizations, brands, marketers, business development professionals kind of always say, you know, I put customer first. And actually what they really mean is I do a little bit of, you know, kind of passive listening and then I try and sell to them. I kind of push. And and it kind of it it just every single time I hear it, every single time I see it, I think just it's such a wasted opportunity. And I think it is this kind of paying lip service to this concept of value where actually when you say I've listened to the customer and I'm reflecting back everything the customer wants and then actually what you're doing is you're using your products or your services, features, and benefits to sell those, I guess, assets and you you're not actually considering the customer's perception of value. It's all from your own perception. It's all from your own perspective.

Neil Wilkins: And for me, that's just such a wasted opportunity because there is something beautiful about actually truly stepping into the customer's shoes and viewing the world from their perspective. And and so few people actually do that.

Bruce Scheer: Oh, gosh. That is just so well articulated, Neil. Just a catchphrase or a foundational phrase, I I might say, is, you know, values in the eyes of the beholder, you know, the the recipient. And, you know, very, very often, I'm thinking when I'm interacting, especially on the sales side, are are you selling are you showing up to sell stuff? Are you showing up to sell value? And and with that concept of value being in the eye of the beholder, need to kinda understand the beholder and and kinda dig in and and even cocreate and shape what the total potential value could be. And and that that's the art and beauty and and their science behind it as well of having those selling conversations, buying conversations, and and and cocreating what what that vision of value might look like and creating that case for change around that. And and so few in the world of b to b sales and marketing do. And, just some really, really rough staffs stats this year. Gartner did a study and determined that 75% of buyers prefer to have a sales free experience in the world of b to b, and, you know, that that's shocking.

Bruce Scheer: You know, it's horrible. You know, they they prefer to have a sales free experience. Sometimes they have to have a sales experience in order to buy, which is even worse. You know? So just you know, it it's it's not good. And then I think, Neil, you know, I'd mentioned to you, you know, the statistic of 60% of deals end in indecision, where there was a lot of energy that tried to go into making something happen. And then, you know, both parties realize you're you know, nothing moves forward. You know, the you know, we we get into the stall of indecision. Nothing moves forward, and all that time and energy was wasted, which is, Neil, you know Heathrow? I I don't like standing in line in Heathrow.

Bruce Scheer: That that's wasted time. That's what I'm saying. Pet peeves. You know, I love to help people move forward and and accelerate and and get the value. So no. I I I love what you said, though. Yeah. This is a mindset issue. It's an orientation issue. It's you know, there there's a lot lot to unpack in this. Anything else you can say to anchor on the importance of it? I I

Neil Wilkins: just really wanted to kind of, hook into something that you've just said there, which kind of reminded me that I think too many of us are really on this kind of almost a race to the close. And and I get it. You know, we we've got either sales, you know, managers or we've got our chief execs or we've got business owners kind of putting the pressure on you gotta close the deal. We need the revenue this month. Or, you know, we've done this campaign. Wanna see the ROI from the campaign if you're a marketer listening to this. And to me, that's great and I understand it. You know, we've all got to maintain cash flow, but it kinda loses sight of the fact that the longer term value you're gonna get back revenue wise, business growth wise, brand quality wise is gonna come from being patient.

Neil Wilkins: And I think if if we just continue to race to the close of each sale opportunity, we've missed that beautiful sweet spot where if we can build the relationship around value rather than always going back to our product or our service to close the deal then we've got an opportunity to build something that is going to last. It's gonna have longevity. And you just think about the lifetime value of that relationship is gonna be 10 x even a 100 x more than just that single deal, and I think that's where we often fall down.

Bruce Scheer: Okay. Yeah. So well articulated. But, you know, back to this visual, I whipped this up with a ChatGPT image generator. Just goofing off with that. But the whole concept of total value experience, there's also an angle for the vendor as you highlight. You know, when you get this right, you, you're gonna realize more value. You know, you're gonna have a a happy advocate.

Bruce Scheer: You know? Your your customer's gonna realize the value that's been promised, that you co created together, and then and then you you measured for that first impact, and you're heading down the right direction. The value's there. Oh my gosh. You've got a loyal advocate, and you've got retention. You know? You've got loyalty. They wanna stick around because they see the value. They're realizing the value. They wanna expand the value.

Bruce Scheer: You know, there's just, you know, this this wonderful element what, you know, people think about customer life cycle value, but that that that goes up as well. And everyone wins when that does, both the the buyer and the seller and the stakeholders behind them. So it's a beautiful thing when it's done right. But very often, it's a it's a push and pull and tug and, you know, and and things die on the vine as as we talked about. It's just not going well. But let's, let's talk about how to make it go well. You know? So we've got this, this buying journey, you know, what we call a value ready framework. And for people listening to the show, the framework is built on 4 4 key phases.

Bruce Scheer: You know? If if somebody's gonna buy something from you, what we did in our research and, you know, a lot of primary research, some secondary research as well is we we coined this framework around the 4 phases. The first phase is you you wanna build trust, and, there's certain dimensions around that. You need to be credibility ready, client ready, kinda gotta do some research and homework on the client just so you can show up and respect their time and then and be relevant right out of the gate. And then you need to be narrative ready, and that's what that best selling book I was telling you about. Inspire your buyers, go to market with the story that sizzles is all about, nailing that narrative. 2nd phase is understand needs. So you're you're kinda end of the game. You had credibility, you did your homework, you got a great story that's provocative and talks about a need for change that that your buyer can buy into, then we need to really kinda double down and understand needs.

Bruce Scheer: You know, what's this mean for different stakeholders, the different buyers that's being buyer ready? How how do you get discovery ready? How can you go in and ask some really good questions to really get to the heart of of the total potential value that that you could be offering? And, then you move into the phase 3, deliver insights. You know? So you, you know, did your homework, had that wonderful discovery. Now you're ready to demonstrate to to all the critical decision makers and stakeholders where where where that potential value is gonna come from and how that's gonna be realized. That's how you what we call demonstration ready. Then moving into, what we call justification ready. That's where, you know, we get our value calculated, ROI calculators. And, of course, my firm does a a beautiful job of creating assets like that, tools like that. But how do we help the buyer quantify the potential value, and put together a compelling business case? That's what we call justification ready.

Bruce Scheer: But then you need to move towards the final phase of drive execution, and this is the stage that typically hangs up most deals where, are you approval ready? One of our affiliates, Neil, he's a former head of procurement for Levi Strauss, and he said, Bruce, you wouldn't believe how many vendors would come to us. And they hadn't even gone through information security yet. And so, boom, you know, add on 2 to 3 months of their sales cycle just just on that. You know, not not seeing that in advance and getting in line and making sure that that process goes smoothly or even the procurement process, you know, making sure that procurement gets what they need, etcetera. That's what we call approval readiness on, under drive execution. Then, you know, negotiation readiness. You know? We we do find that when you have a compelling total value proposition, that's quantified, that takes a lot of heat off that pricing discussion, etcetera, and and the terms, and and that'll help you in being negotiation ready. And then the final, dimension there under drive execution is impact ready, where, you and the buyer agree.

Bruce Scheer: How, you know, how are we gonna measure success? You know, you know, what are the critical few metrics where we can get data to prove that you and I moved the dial? And then you and I can feel good about that if we didn't. Or if something's off, we can, you know, course correct, you know, early on and make sure you are realizing the value you expect or even getting more. And then who knows? Maybe we'll talk about some other things to create even more value at that point. But how are we gonna measure for that that first impact success? And I I've got a whole episode around that that's that's really wonderful. So, Neil, we just laid out this value ready framework from build trust, understand needs, deliver insights, and drive execution. Now over to you, the expert, talking about, just the marketing role and impact across this, if you could. So not just above funnel, not not just demand management, but all the way through to those closed deals and value realization.

Neil Wilkins: And I think that's it, Bruce. I mean, I really do. I think I think it is about all the way through. I think there's a there's a really key phrase for for your listeners here. This this whole idea of all the way through because if you're listening to this from a marketing or sales perspective and you're really being honest with yourself, you are not performing. And I'll put myself here. I'll look in the mirror and I'll say I'm not performing as much as I know you're not performing performing guys at the same level with every single one of these ready factors. You're not.

Neil Wilkins: None of us are. And I think one of the key things here is being brutally honest with yourself and saying, okay. Where are we falling short? Where are we actually not delivering where we could be delivering? Where are we kind of almost being maybe a little bit complacent? Maybe not as competitive, or maybe just our attention isn't there. Maybe we're lacking in a process or some kind of level of systemizing of what we do. So it kind of becomes a little bit wooly, a little bit flaky, a bit unpredictable, and then there is a weakness. There's an opportunity for you to kind of really sort of grasp that and say, right. Here's an improvement opportunity. This is something we could really focus on maybe for next year or maybe, you know, within this kind of, improvement cycle that we're going through as we're planning maybe for the upcoming quarter or whatever it is.

Neil Wilkins: So, I mean, for me, it is this whole through journey. We've gotta be thinking about this from a marketing perspective right from the get go all the way through to this, as you describe it, Bruce, you know, this building of advocacy which obviously comes at the end. The thing I love about this buying journey and the way that you've constructed this is that it really does overlay on top of from a marketing framework that very simple three step kind of pipeline, if you like, from a marketing perspective, which is awareness, conversion, retention. So we've got a very simple customer journey in marketing that says build awareness, the right kind of awareness with the right audience, convert that awareness into some kind of transaction. Might be monetary, but it doesn't have to be. It could be a change of behavior or something like that, but you've gotta have a conversion point. And then from that conversion point, build and retain the relationship to build loyalty and get advocacy. So I I just see that beautifully overlaid on this building trust, understanding the needs, delivering the insights, and driving execution.

Neil Wilkins: It is end to end. That is the beauty of this. And I just wanted to kind of, I guess, really highlight something that I think for many of us is kinda missing from this because when I see clients doing this, not every client. Some clients are great. Some some are really doing this, but when I see marketers and brands and some of my clients, they they're kind of they're doing great planning, but it's all about them. What they're not doing is a word that you've just said a number of times, Bruce, which is co creating. They're not really co creating this value that makes them ready at all these points because what they're doing is they're making assumptions or they're doing a piece of research. They're kind of jumping the gun and saying okay this is what we think is value based on the research, based on the trends, so we're going to put that into the mix.

Neil Wilkins: And then they feel the job is done. What they've failed to do is co create that value with the customer or the prospect. So the way I'm seeing that word co creation play out is right the way through this journey, this buying journey. So from a marketer's perspective, right at the front end is, okay. Which channels are we gonna use to warm the prospect up so that when the salesperson goes in, this person is ready. They're ready with the credibility because they understand what we do. They're ready. They understand the base narrative.

Neil Wilkins: Okay? The salesperson can go in and then really go deeper into what that truly means. But what they're doing is they've been warmed up with a consistent story, and they're doing that from a co creation. So they've listened to previous customers and actually how it's been for them rather than just jump in and say hey we've got this snappy little campaign, aren't we clever? Look at the creative and assuming that that is going to work. Of course, that's ivory tower planning. It isn't, you know, based on reality. It's not based on the perception of your customer or your prospect. So I just love the way that you phrase that co creation and collaboration kind of, you know, set of words there because I think that can play through this whole journey and both bond the prospect or the customer with the salesperson, but can also bring marketing into the same mix. And then that I would see is where marketing and sales can work together with the prospect or customer to really truly cocreate the whole experience.

Neil Wilkins: And I think it's where those things aren't joined up is where we find so much stuff falling through the gaps, and those opportunities then go to waste. Yeah. I mean, is it is that kind of how you might see it too?

Bruce Scheer: Oh, yeah. 100%. Yeah. Very, very much. So, I've got something to interject for you that I I hope you might enjoy. One of our, affiliates is out of the UK, Neil, and he, he's written a number of different books on on value. But his definition of value is value is a mystery. And he plays off the Sherlock Holmes, but he says that, you know, effectively, it's a mystery until you figure it out.

Bruce Scheer: It it's a it's a puzzle. It it you know? And and you do that with your customer, not not to them, but with them. And and, you know, again, back to the co create and and discover together what what that true value really looks like, the true real value for them in their context, in their situation, and and what's the magnitude of that? What's the expectation around that? And I

Neil Wilkins: think, certainly for me, I I kind of extending that on and I I love that analogy. I think it's great. It is this whole idea, which, of course, you know, a lot of us know, in in many commercial disciplines are starting to really think deeply about which is this word personalization. Because, of course, if that is what we're trying to do in terms of value or experience, in a in the broadest sense, then personalization is achievable. I mean, it's it's a little bit of a, you know, pipe dream if all you're doing is a generic kind of offer from a sales and marketing perspective. But if you truly listen, if you are helping the customer or the prospect to discover the value that could be uncovered from the offer that you've got and you're actually going on that journey together, there's an opportunity to truly personalize because you're listening, they're listening, and because you're co creating it's so personal to them. It almost by default is personalization so you don't have to get clever and scientific. It is by going through this put this, this journey with them that you are actually personalizing and I'm really excited by that because it becomes a reality.

Neil Wilkins: Something you know, the textbooks have said for decades but never really had the the perfect storm to realize it. But I think it's here now with this kind of buying journey.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. For for us, Neil, we're we're, we're really just trying to impact you know, mindset for people to be thinking about total value experience. And and and then on the notion of personalization, the the tools that can be brought to bear are are really incredible, especially now with the, you know, advent of AI. We ourselves have a tool. We call it ValueBrief, and, our clients can use it to effectively get really good at building trust. So, Neil, that's a a bit above marketing or or how would I say? It's designed for the individual sellers, but what they can do is take their prospect, their prospect's LinkedIn profile, and put that into our tool, and, it'll help them it'll do all this background homework work and research. You know, look at the quarter learnings report and look at the 10 k, the annual report, and, you know, investor interviews, conversations. Grab all that content to try to figure out what's important for that customer, whether their strategic objectives, what are they really trying to accomplish, what's their competitive sphere, what what what's bothering them at this point in time, what's going on in their world.

Bruce Scheer: And then, it'll help characterize what you talked about, that base level narrative that that you could use to that's even tailored to that prospect, not not just generic off of a website, but even tailored for that prospect, getting you into a posture of being narrative ready. So, gosh, just with the the right mindset and the tools, you you can accomplish so much, e even right now towards that, you know, that that mystical, you know, future state of being personalization, really making that happen. And then as you move into that buying journey, you know, you know, you just do that at a much deeper level, but you've earned the right to. You've built trust. Now now, you know, you got the credibility. You know, let's go forward and and and really do some work together so we can both achieve some incredible value here.

Neil Wilkins: And I think it's it's interesting that you say that from a, an individual salesperson's perspective that obviously they can use LinkedIn and go and do that deep research. For from a marketer's perspective, I could also see that working beautifully in terms of campaign preparation because if you have your customer persona profile, you could go through a similar kind of exercise with this. I mean, they're kind of a make believe kind of persona, but we're kind of almost stereotyping the ideal customer or prospect there. And then going through that same process with the AIs to, you know, formulate, you know, a proposition or formulate some kind of value campaign in a similar kind of way. I I could certainly see that working for marketers too.

Bruce Scheer: Well, it it it needs to happen. We do work on the marketing side of the house as well, because at the end of the day, for for a compelling total value experience, you need to have a through line, you know, through marketing, sales, product support. Everybody needs to be on that same wavelength, on that same signal. But, you know, like you said, you know, you have a base level narrative, but then you need to really tailor it for that customer and and tailor that value proposition for that customer so so they can, you know, see that and and believe in that and and buy and and realize that that potential value. So, yeah, everybody's involved. I, I had the CRO, former CRO of Tableau, on on the show just literally last week. And when we built their narrative for them, their pre IPO narrative, they they had their IPO for about $1,000,000,000, and then after that, salesforce.com bought them. So all my clients are multimillionaires now, Neil.

Bruce Scheer: They're in a in a happy place financially anyways. But once we built that narrative, it became a whole company narrative, from the chairman to product, service, professional services, every everybody, sales, everybody went through training around the narrative so they could all be on that narrative. You know, because you gotta be consistent at at the end of the day. And, of course, as a professional marketer, you know that, you know, the power of consistency and showing up and really owning your position, but, you know, that needs to go flow all the way through.

Neil Wilkins: And I guess that also translates not only internally within your own team, but also from the customer's perspective because if you have a multilayer or multilevel sell going on. So you might be talking to a large corporate or multinational where, you know, you have a number of different disciplines that this value proposition or this value ready kind of journey needs to play out in. So you might be talking to the finance director. You might be talking to sales or, you know, the the operations team or whatever. There there's also a little, sort of, you know, interplay going on there where you need to customize almost this value story if you like or this narrative for individual disciplines. And it has to be consistent so you have that thread playing through it, but, also, then it has to be, you know, very targeted towards each individual discipline because they'll translate it differently, won't they? I mean, this is the thing is you gotta be quite fleet of foot here. This isn't just a a one time exercise, and it will apply every time you do it. You've gotta be really awake, haven't you, as a business professional now?

Bruce Scheer: Absolutely. And, also, if your organization like, I've done a ton of work with Microsoft, and about 90% of their revenue flows through their partners, their their strategic partners, value added resellers, etcetera. Huge component of their go to market success has been around enabling their partner community, but that that's just another degree of understanding and complexity that gets woven into this. You know, a lot of those partners, they have their own secret sauce that they add into the equation, and that needs to be part of the narrative and and and the the the value quantification, etcetera. You know, that that needs to be, you know, in the eye of the partner as as a beholder as they take it to their customers, the the beholder, and and that creates another level of complexity and opportunity for getting that right.

Neil Wilkins: And I suppose what it's doing, just kinda thinking that through to to almost to to the the conclusion of that kind of, sort of idea and way of thinking is it it kinda reduces risk, doesn't it? Because if you have a a big, you know, kind of supply chain or value chain that you're creating here, somebody like Microsoft, obviously, it is huge. But even for a smaller organization where, you know, you you might be in partial control over how your messages are getting out and particularly if you have resellers, etcetera. What this kind of approach is doing is it's making it more predictable. It's making it more robust. It's making it more consistent so that when anybody who may be interested as a prospect sees or hears this storytelling, which is really what we're talking about in communication, it comes through in a consistent way. It isn't that salesperson a is gonna have a very different take versus salesperson b. They're going to have some consistency. So we're building brands here, aren't we, for the long term? We're not just doing the sell in the short term.

Neil Wilkins: This is something that's got real longevity to it, isn't it?

Bruce Scheer: Oh, absolutely. And when done right, it it can, you know, really be the the revenue accelerator. You know, that that's the sad thing. I see so few organizations truly investing in this. You know? They might invest a lot in r and d, but not r and d around, you know, their narrative and how they go to market for sure. And then, you know, things get even more slippery, you know, even past that, you know, front end of building trust and awareness. But, you know, how how how that whole b to b, you know, buyer sales journey transpires, that that gets super slippery as well. Big opportunity for everybody to, to move forward in a more orchestrated fashion, more consistent, more impactful, big opportunity.

Bruce Scheer: Well, we've, we've covered a lot, and this has been super fun. Of course, we're both passionate about it, but what else would you say, Neil? Just final thoughts for us as we think about this whole idea of, you know, the total value experience and and the marketing orientation towards that. Anything else that you could offer?

Neil Wilkins: Yeah. I mean, I think I mean, it's just I mean, you know, driven a lot by kind of your your philosophy, Bruce, which is this whole thing about marketing the sizzle. I I think within this kind of a framework, I think part of the sizzle that comes through here is education, the word education. Because I think for a lot of prospects and particularly existing customers, if you can educate them with a lowercase e, I'm not talking about preaching. I'm not talking about necessarily teaching but as part of that collaboration, as part of that co creation, if you can be educating them with opportunities, educate them with, you know, the market trends, actually make their business life easier to do business within. You're gonna make them feel great. They're gonna perceive that you're giving them value because you are and it's gonna build that kind of that level of trust that goes way way beyond the sell. It goes way way beyond the marketing.

Neil Wilkins: This is actually about true human to human connection. And so when they see your email come into their busy inbox or they see your call caller ID coming up on their phone, they know they're gonna get value so they'll take that call or they'll look at your email first. And I think if you're kind of helping them on that journey of looking good and feeling good, then that is true value because otherwise, it is still transactional if we're being honest.

Bruce Scheer: I'm so glad you said that. That was part of the genesis of why we called our company ValuePros.io, because, you know, if the buyer looks at the the telephone, the the caller ID, knows it's the sales guy, run. Don't answer it. Go straight to voice mail. But if they if they perceive that as, oh, there's the value pro giving me a call ready to create value for us. That's exciting. I'll take that one. You know, that that that was our whole genesis and orientation around this. Funny enough.

Neil Wilkins: Really? Well, it's it's almost like I knew, but I didn't genuinely, listeners. I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it is clearly working, and it clearly does work. That's great.

Bruce Scheer: Because we wanted we also wanted to help, sellers, oh, re identify themselves. I'm not a seller. I'm a value pro. That that's why I exist. I I help I I bring the value. I I really help my clients achieve that value, and and and I love getting my clients promoted because they made the right decision. But I really wanna help out. It's all about the value.

Neil Wilkins: So I suppose, yeah, kind of a final sort of thought that kinda plugs into that one as well is, I I guess it's a bit a little bit of a challenge really both for marketers and for salespeople is can you actually provide value without ever mentioning your product or service? Can you actually go into a meeting and not talk about your product or service at all and the customer then thinks, wow. That was a great meeting. Because if you can do that, I think then we're starting to hook into what value truly is because it isn't your product or service. And that's the hardest thing, but it's the best thing to focus on.

Bruce Scheer: Yeah. Yeah. Nope. I love it. Well, hey. That's a mic drop moment. I I wanna leave on that thought. That's a lovely, lovely provocation.

Bruce Scheer: So, Neil, just wanna highlight for people how to get in touch with you. For people watching this, Neil has one of the coolest looking LinkedIn profiles I've seen. It's beautiful. And if if you need to be in a happy place, go look up Neil's profile. It'll it'll immediately immediately, calm you. I'll promise you that. And then, when you look for Neil, it's Neil Wilkins x, and Neil does bring the x factor, so that that's very valid. But, Neil Wilkins x is the right Neil, and and notice that he's a very beautiful man with a very calming profile.

Bruce Scheer: Also, Neil, let's talk about your podcast a little bit. Can you tell us a little bit about the focus of it?

Neil Wilkins: Yeah. The focus is for anybody with some entrepreneurial spirit. And what I mean by that is you could be business developer. You could be an account handler. You could be a marketer. Anybody who's in a commercial sense or looking to differentiate and and do things differently and and truly add value. So it's very aligned with the conversation that we've had here today. So if you are looking to develop both professionally and personally, get some very interesting guests on here who will be, yeah, kinda just giving you some lifestyle, not hacks.

Neil Wilkins: I think that kind of devalues it, but kind of, yeah, they're doing wholesome business. Somebody described it as this is wholesome, isn't it? Wholesome as in holistic, but wholesome as in just good business and and being a good human in in a commercial sense. So I love that, and that's certainly the kind of, kind of guest that we tend to see on the on the podcast.

Bruce Scheer: Awesome. Well, Neil, thanks so much for your time, your consideration, and and bringing the your whole self to this and creating a wholesome experience for these listeners today. Really appreciate it.

Neil Wilkins: Thank you, Bruce. It had been an absolute pleasure again.

Bruce Scheer: Cool. Alright.